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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: APL] #165703
06/06/14 03:05 AM
06/06/14 03:05 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
But asygo, green said, "In order to have Christ's righteousness imputed to us, we must first obey His law.". He can't be wrong, can he???


I'm not wrong on this one, APL, because Mrs. White said it. If it's wrong, take this up with her and with God who inspired her.

Let me quote that one again for your review.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The sinner, through repentance of his sins, faith in Christ, and obedience to the perfect law of God, has the righteousness of Christ imputed to him; it becomes his righteousness, and his name is recorded in the Lamb's book of life. He becomes a child of God, a member of the royal family. {3T 371.2}


Mrs. White lists three prerequisites to receiving Christ's imputed righteousness. Obedience is one of them.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: APL] #165709
06/06/14 05:04 AM
06/06/14 05:04 AM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: APL
Meanings can get lost in translation.

So you need a Greek lexicon to find out whether you should "Charizomai" OR "Aphiemi" your neighbour. Ok.

Nevertheless, at the first Jerusalem council of the Christian Church it was observed and agreed, "God, who knows the heart, acknowledged [the Gentiles] by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to [the Jews], and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they." (Acts 15:8-11)

Just remember that.

///

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: asygo] #165712
06/06/14 07:08 AM
06/06/14 07:08 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Heaven is gained by our acceptance of someone else's obedience, character, life. We are heirs of the promise, not earners.


Yes. And we accept Jesus' obedience by obeying His commandments for ourselves. Without obedience, it is impossible to please God. He will not accept us without an effort on our part. God works and man works. God's works save, man's works show who has his heart.

God helps those who help themselves.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
...Jesus will not commission holy angels to extricate those who make no effort to help themselves. {1T 345.2}

...Every effort within their power must be put forth to avert destruction; for God helps those only who help themselves. {LP 267.1}

...The Lord helps those who seek to help themselves; but when men will not take special pains to follow out the mind and will of God, how can he work with them? Let us act our part, working out our salvation with fear and trembling.... {GCB, May 30, 1909 par. 14}

... For the Lord always helps those who help themselves. The Lord is acquainted with all the circumstances, and will work for those who do their very best. ... {RH, September 27, 1887 par. 11}


Our love and acceptance of Christ and His obedience is proven through our own obedience.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
But to pray in Christ's name means much. It means that we are to accept His character, manifest His spirit, and work His works. The Saviour's promise is given on condition. "If ye love Me," He says, "keep My commandments." He saves men, not in sin, but from sin; and those who love Him will show their love by obedience. {DA 668.2}


If Christ will not save us "in sin," that means only those who have escaped sin are saved. I would readily agree that the escape is made possible through the grace of God, yet it is a decision we must make on our part. God will not make our choices for us, and it takes real work to make these choices to obey Him. Once our choice is made, He helps us follow through by His grace. Our obedience may never be perfect, and can never save us--for all have sinned and come under the penalty of death as a result--but when we do all in our power, God will then work in our behalf to save us from sin and destruction.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: Green Cochoa] #165713
06/06/14 11:39 AM
06/06/14 11:39 AM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
But asygo, green said, "In order to have Christ's righteousness imputed to us, we must first obey His law.". He can't be wrong, can he???


I'm not wrong on this one, APL, because Mrs. White said it. If it's wrong, take this up with her and with God who inspired her.

Let me quote that one again for your review.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The sinner, through repentance of his sins, faith in Christ, and obedience to the perfect law of God, has the righteousness of Christ imputed to him; it becomes his righteousness, and his name is recorded in the Lamb's book of life. He becomes a child of God, a member of the royal family. {3T 371.2}


Mrs. White lists three prerequisites to receiving Christ's imputed righteousness. Obedience is one of them.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can not obey on our own. We have not the power. We can only obey because of what Christ does for us and to us. I hear you saying that we can obey on our own. If you are not saying that, then pardon me.

The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. [He can not obey] But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. More than this, Christ imbues men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty. Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Romans 3:26. {DA 762.2}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: Green Cochoa] #165715
06/06/14 01:35 PM
06/06/14 01:35 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Posts: 6,512
Midland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I'm not wrong on this one, APL, because Mrs. White said it.
I've heard that before.

Without knowing what was said, and based upon past such statements, I can feel very confident that Mrs. White did not say what Green says she did. Patterns repeat themselves.

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: Green Cochoa] #165723
06/06/14 02:46 PM
06/06/14 02:46 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Our obedience may never be perfect, and can never save us--for all have sinned and come under the penalty of death as a result--but when we do all in our power, God will then work in our behalf to save us from sin and destruction.

I was praising God for your post until you finished with the words above. Too bad. Nowhere in the Bible or the SOP does it say the fruit of abiding in Jesus is sinful or imperfect. Jesus is not party to sin. Sin cannot abide in the heart wherein Christ reigns supreme. Sin and Jesus cannot cohabitate. "If his Spirit abides in the heart, sin cannot dwell there." {RH, March 16, 1886 par. 2} The fruit of abiding in Jesus is "perfect obedience" - not sin-stained imperfect obedience.

Quote:
The love of Jesus and the love of money cannot dwell in the same heart. {CS 157.3}

God cannot dwell in your heart or thoughts where self rules supreme. {DG 122.2}

Envy, malice, jealousy, and distrust are cherished, and Jesus cannot dwell where these traits are entertained. {GW92 459.2}

If suspicions and envy and jealousies and evil surmisings are cherished, these will exclude the blessing of God, for Jesus cannot dwell in a heart where these things are cherished. The soul temple must be cleansed of every defilement. {RC 277.2}

Selfishness must be put away; for the love of God cannot dwell in the heart where self is enshrined. The inclinations which war against the holy principles of purity and godliness must be wholly given up. {RH, December 1, 1896 par. 14}

"Only for those who return to their allegiance to God, only for those who obey the law that they have violated, will the blood of Christ avail. Christ will never become a party to sin. {6BC 1092.7} Jesus enables us to crucify self. And then He empowers us to use our faculties of mind and body to reproduce His lovely traits of character. He equips us at the miraculous moment of rebirth with His traits and attributes - not one is missing. These enable us to honor and glorify Him in all our habits and practices.

Quote:
The life of the vine will be manifest in fragrant fruit on the branches. "He that abideth in Me," said Jesus, "and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing." When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}

We need to understand that imperfection of character is sin. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}

The leaven hidden in the flour works invisibly to bring the whole mass under its leavening process; so the leaven of truth works secretly, silently, steadily, to transform the soul. The natural inclinations are softened and subdued. New thoughts, new feelings, new motives, are implanted. A new standard of character is set up--the life of Christ. The mind is changed; the faculties are roused to action in new lines. Man is not endowed with new faculties, but the faculties he has are sanctified. The conscience is awakened. We are endowed with traits of character that enable us to do service for God. {COL 98.3}

The Spirit of God does not propose to do our part, either in the willing or the doing. This is the work of the human agent in cooperating with the divine agencies. As soon as we incline our will to harmonize with God's will, the grace of Christ stands to cooperate with the human agent; but it will not be the substitute to do our work independent of our resolving and decidedly acting. {2MCP 691.3}

To make God's grace our own, we must act our part. The Lord does not propose to perform for us either the willing or the doing. His grace is given to work in us to will and to do, but never as a substitute for our effort. Our souls are to be aroused to co-operate. The Holy Spirit works in us, that we may work out our own salvation. This is the practical lesson the Holy Spirit is striving to teach us. "It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure." {MYP 147.2}

To say the fruit of abiding in Jesus is sinful or sin-stained or imperfect is to deny the testimonies posted above. The only thing lacking is merit - and only Jesus supply it. He doesn't change it from sin to righteousness. He adds merit - that's it.

Quote:
The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices, they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again. {RH, April 12, 1892 par. 9}

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: APL] #165724
06/06/14 02:54 PM
06/06/14 02:54 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: APL
We can not obey on our own. We have not the power. We can only obey because of what Christ does for us and to us. I hear you saying that we can obey on our own. If you are not saying that, then pardon me.

He is not at all saying we can obey without Jesus' supernatural aid. He is saying the following:

Quote:
When the soul surrenders itself to Christ, a new power takes possession of the new heart. A change is wrought which man can never accomplish for himself. It is a supernatural work, bringing a supernatural element into human nature. The soul that is yielded to Christ becomes His own fortress, which He holds in a revolted world, and He intends that no authority shall be known in it but His own. A soul thus kept in possession by the heavenly agencies is impregnable to the assaults of Satan. But unless we do yield ourselves to the control of Christ, we shall be dominated by the wicked one. We must inevitably be under the control of the one or the other of the two great powers that are contending for the supremacy of the world. It is not necessary for us deliberately to choose the service of the kingdom of darkness in order to come under its dominion. We have only to neglect to ally ourselves with the kingdom of light. If we do not co-operate with the heavenly agencies, Satan will take possession of the heart, and will make it his abiding place. The only defense against evil is the indwelling of Christ in the heart through faith in His righteousness. Unless we become vitally connected with God, we can never resist the unhallowed effects of self-love, self-indulgence, and temptation to sin. We may leave off many bad habits, for the time we may part company with Satan; but without a vital connection with God, through the surrender of ourselves to Him moment by moment, we shall be overcome. Without a personal acquaintance with Christ, and a continual communion, we are at the mercy of the enemy, and shall do his bidding in the end. {DA 324.1}

Again, the idea that the fruit of Jesus' supernatural assistance yields imperfect obedience is not supported in the Bible or in the SOP.

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: dedication] #165726
06/06/14 03:10 PM
06/06/14 03:10 PM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
I have an idea. How about everyone shut down their SOP software and let's just go to the Bible? I saw somehing in Galatians that I had never really noticed before, and I would like to get a better handle on the Scriptures before going into the SOP. I want to use the SOP as a guide to my studies, not as its foundation.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: dedication] #165727
06/06/14 03:18 PM
06/06/14 03:18 PM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: mm
He is not at all saying we can obey without Jesus' supernatural aid. He is saying the following:
That is not what I hear him saying. Granted, this form of communication (forums) one looses much in the communication process. Without Christ, we can do nothing.
Originally Posted By: mm
Again, the idea that the fruit of Jesus' supernatural assistance yields imperfect obedience is not supported in the Bible or in the SOP.
See COL 331 quote above...


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: asygo] #165736
06/07/14 01:23 AM
06/07/14 01:23 AM
dedication  Online Content OP
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,705
Canada
Originally Posted By: asygo
I have an idea. How about everyone shut down their SOP software and let's just go to the Bible? I saw somehing in Galatians that I had never really noticed before, and I would like to get a better handle on the Scriptures before going into the SOP. I want to use the SOP as a guide to my studies, not as its foundation.


Amen!
We are far to prone to take sentences from EGW's writings and use them as "proof texts" to bolster our own ideas, and thereby totally miss the bigger picture.

There is very little real Bible study here.

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