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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: Daryl] #167345
08/08/14 03:33 PM
08/08/14 03:33 PM
APL  Offline
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Did I say His mind was ours? No. But His mind was in sinful flesh. While taking on the sin of the world, our sins, He never participated in its sin. What did Christ have to overcome??? The same thing we need to overcome. What did Christ come to save? Our very flesh.

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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: APL] #167346
08/08/14 03:37 PM
08/08/14 03:37 PM
asygo  Offline
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What mind would that be? His sinful mind?


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: APL] #167347
08/08/14 03:40 PM
08/08/14 03:40 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
What did Christ come to save? Our very flesh.

He didn't come to save our flesh. He came to crucify it, with its passions and desires. See Galatians 5:24.

I think we have come to our point of divergence. Unless we agree on what Jesus saves, it's pointless to continue.

Last edited by asygo; 08/08/14 03:45 PM.

By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: APL] #167349
08/08/14 03:47 PM
08/08/14 03:47 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
He never participated in its sin. What did Christ have to overcome??? The same thing we need to overcome.

We must overcome cultivated tendencies to evil. He didn't have that.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: asygo] #167350
08/08/14 03:48 PM
08/08/14 03:48 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: APL
What did Christ come to save? Our very flesh.

He didn't come to save our flesh. He came to crucify it, with its passions and desires. See Galatians 5:24.

I think we have come to our point of divergence. Unless we agree on what Jesus saves, it's pointless to continue.


Christ has redeemed us; our very flesh He has saved at an infinite cost, giving His own flesh for the life of the world. {SpM 209.2}

What does Christ save us from? The answer is easy.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: Mountain Man] #167352
08/08/14 03:52 PM
08/08/14 03:52 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
1. Empty your heart of its selfishness.
2. Christ can put his mold upon you.

Quote:
The grace of Christ expels the selfishness that has hitherto ruled the life. The affections turn to God. The character is transformed. The man is filled with an intense desire to serve him who has done so much for him. {RH, January 26, 1911 par. 15}

However, "You cannot reach the full measure of the stature of Christ in a day, and you would sink in despair could you behold all the difficulties that must be met and overcome." – {MYP 45.3}


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: APL] #167355
08/08/14 03:56 PM
08/08/14 03:56 PM
asygo  Offline
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Posts: 5,636
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Originally Posted By: APL
What does Christ save us from? The answer is easy.

It is difficult to fathom that you can have an answer to that, given that you cannot distinguish between sinful flesh and sinful mind.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: Mountain Man] #167356
08/08/14 04:02 PM
08/08/14 04:02 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: asygo
I detect an unwarranted attachment to forms and symbols.

Not from me.

It was your post that drew that observation.

You say the thief on the cross was exempted from Christ's requirements. I say he was born of the wter and the Spirit. The difference is that you believe the water birth is physical immersion in water, while I believe it is a moral washing that results in outward obedience. I believe that baptism is a non-salvific symbol of that moral washing.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: Rosangela] #167358
08/08/14 06:40 PM
08/08/14 06:40 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
1) What is crystal clear is that conversion subdues selfishness, not that it eradicates selfishness.

2) Of course sinful tendencies and selfish tendencies are one and the same thing. And of course selfish tendencies are subdued, not eradicated.

3) And, by the way, don't you say that what is inherited cannot be eradicated?

4) What also is crystal clear is that "selfishness is sin" (ST, April 13, 1891 par. 3) and that selfishness is in the mind.

5) So, in our minds there is selfishness (since we must empty our minds from it), but in the mind of Christ there was no selfishness.

1) Good point. The Holy Spirit enables believers to subdue selfishness. Selfishness is a part of sinful flesh. And sinful flesh will be a part of believers until the day Jesus returns and replaces it with sinless flesh. However, Ellen White says selfishness must be eradicated (expelled, rooted out, crucified) from the heart. See quotes below. So, believers can, and must, eradicate selfishness from the heart - but they will not be able to eradicate it from sinful flesh nature.

2) Yes, sinful tendencies and selfish tendencies are one and the same thing. But selfishness in the heart and selfishness in sinful flesh are different realities. The one must be eradicated whereas the other can only be subdued.

3) Not just me. Ellen White is clear about it. Selfishness in sinful flesh cannot be eradicated. It can only be subdued. But selfishness in the heart can be eradicated (expelled, rooted out, crucified).

4) True, the old heart is the epitome of selfishness. But the new heart is free of selfishness. "The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Psalm 40:8. {DA 175.5} It is the Spirit that convinces of sin, and, with the consent of the human being, expels sin from the heart. The mind is then brought under a new law--the royal law of liberty. {OHC 152.3}

5) True. A mind emptied of selfishness is free of selfishness. Jesus implants within newborn believers a new nature, a new mind, a new heart, new tendencies, new tastes - free of selfishness.

Quote:
He will not tolerate selfishness. {RH, August 12, 1909 par. 11}

Let selfishness be rooted out of the heart. In the life of Christ there was no fiber of selfishness. {RH, November 30, 1897 par. 11}

He alone, for the selfish heart of sin, gives the new heart of love. {COL 254.2}

He whose eyes are fixed on Jesus will leave all. He will die to selfishness. {Mar 99.4}

As we think of what He has done for us, our hearts should be filled with gratitude and love, and we should renounce all selfishness and sin. {OFC 247.4}

All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking, is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart. {YRP 289.3}

If self has really been crucified, with the affections and lusts, the fruit will appear in good works to the glory of God. . . When the heart has given its affections to Christ, old things have passed away, and all things have become new. {5T 650.2}

If pride and selfishness and covetousness are not eradicated from the heart, they will poison every lifespring of the soul, and true liberality and Christian courtesy can not be exercised. {RH, February 27, 1900 par. 7}

If from the first selfishness had been eradicated from the hearts of the laborers, if the love of Jesus and the love of souls for whom Christ died, had controlled the workers, what a strong company might have been raised up. {PH118 9.1}

Every plant that Satan has planted--jealousy, anger, envy, evil surmising, evil speaking, impatience, fretfulness, prejudice, vanity, covetousness, and selfishness--should be rooted up without delay. {13MR 79.2}

God requires every soul to be pure and holy. We have hereditary tendencies to wrong. This is a part of self that no one need carry about. It is a weakness of humanity to pet selfishness, because it is a natural trait of character. But unless all selfishness is put away, unless self is crucified, we can never be holy as God is holy. {FLB 140.4}

But the teachers of truth can do their work acceptably only as self is crucified, and selfishness is purged from their hearts. They are to purify themselves even as Christ is pure. {GH, March 1, 1904 par. 17}

The Lord reveals to men their danger, and warns them to put away all selfishness, that they may have that faith which works by love and purifies the soul. {RH, May 24, 1898 par. 10}

Through sin the heart and the mind have been defiled and enfeebled, but Jesus came to impart moral power, to reshape moral taste, to fashion man after the divine similitude, and to elevate humanity in the scale of moral value with God. If we would learn of Christ, we must have the faith which works by love and purifies the soul. Faith is valueless if it does not work by love and expel from the soul all selfishness, all pride and self-righteousness. {YI, March 12, 1896 par. 5}

His grace in all its vastness is provided for all. There is no excuse for any to retain selfishness. In the hearts of all who receive him, Christ will be formed, the hope of glory. The Saviour says to every one for whom he has died, You must receive the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of adoption. You must become so united with God that you will impart the grace you have received. Thus you become a living channel, by which God can communicate his light to the world. {GCB, October 1, 1899 par. 5}

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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: asygo] #167361
08/08/14 07:14 PM
08/08/14 07:14 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: APL
What does Christ save us from? The answer is easy.

It is difficult to fathom that you can have an answer to that, given that you cannot distinguish between sinful flesh and sinful mind.


It is written: Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and you shall call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Sin is the problem that Christ came to solve. Not some legal problem. It is not just mental but also physical healing. The atonement of Christ is not a mere skillful way to have our sins pardoned; it is a divine remedy for the cure of transgression and the restoration of spiritual health. It is the heaven-ordained means by which the righteousness of Christ may be not only upon us, but in our hearts and characters.--Letter 406, 1906. {7ABC 464.2} Our very flesh He has saved at an infinite cost.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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