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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: Daryl] #167507
08/14/14 07:43 PM
08/14/14 07:43 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Jesus commanded the disciples not to preach the gospel unto the Gentiles. "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not."

Jesus is speaking of territory here, not of people. And later on Christ had said, "But you shall receive power, the Holy Spirit coming upon you. And you shall be witnesses to Me both in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and to the end of the earth" (Acts 1:8).

Quote:
Peter testified, "Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath showed me that I should not call any man common or unclean."

This is a misinterpretation of the law.

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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: Daryl] #167516
08/14/14 11:48 PM
08/14/14 11:48 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Jesus waited until the time was right to instruct the Jews on how to share the gospel with non-Jews. Peter's "prejudice" was based on obedience. He believed it was "unlawful" to share the gospel with non-Jews. To do otherwise without a "Thus saith the Lord" would have been presumptuous. Nevertheless, the vision included a "reproof". Peter knew in his heart it was wrong to disregard non-Jews. He was not completely ignorant.

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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: Daryl] #167525
08/15/14 02:58 PM
08/15/14 02:58 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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It's too bad people point to Peter's initial unwillingness to share the Gospel with Gentiles (he partially believed it was unlawful to do so) as proof the biblical description of rebirth and conversion (see quotes below) must be interpreted to mean newborn babes in Christ are born again ignorantly practicing certain cultivated evil habits and traits of character. I cannot help thinking it is this unbiblical interpretation that is delaying the return of Jesus.

1) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
2) Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
3) Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
4) Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
5) If ye love me, keep my commandments.
6) If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
7) Henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. For sin shall not have dominion over you.
8) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. Being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness.
9) But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
10) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
11) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
12) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. They that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance.
13) Be renewed in the spirit of your mind. Put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts. Put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
14) Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
15) Ye are complete in him. Ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.
16) Let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.
17) Ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
18) He which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation, because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
19) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
20) Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, as newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby, if so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
21) Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin, that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
22) His divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue, whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
23) Add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge, and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness, and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.
24) For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
25) Walk in the light, as he is in the light.
26) Whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected.
27) Every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
28) Every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. He that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
29) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
30) For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Again, it amazes me people can read the promises (the biblical descriptions above) and conclude believers are born again ignorant of certain cultivated traits of character. The idea that they ignorantly practice certain evil habits because Jesus chooses to leave them in darkness is unbiblical.

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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: Mountain Man] #167531
08/16/14 03:46 AM
08/16/14 03:46 AM
asygo  Offline
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Maybe Jesus is waiting for the right time to instruct us on those topics. Maybe He doesn't want the cart before the horse.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: asygo] #167532
08/16/14 02:06 PM
08/16/14 02:06 PM
G
gordonb1  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: asygo
I think we tend to ascribe salvific qualities to being dunked in the water.

I know baptized members who were shocked when I said that baptism is a symbol of dying to self with Christ and being raised to walk in newness of life. They said they had never heard of such a thing. Were such "born of water"?

Arnold I fear these new members have been erroneously led
to attach themselves to forms & symbols rather than to Christ.

Whence comes such a teaching? From the pastorate, from the seminary.
And it seems to engulf the churches. One observes a great zeal from
conference leaders to increase the numbers, almost as evidence of their calling.
It's a great and far cry from preaching the sinner's need of Christ.

Instead it might be called the Church's need of new blood.
What of the blood of the Lamb?
What of conviction, repentance, confession of sin?
How did the Ethiopian eunuch prepare his mind for baptism? (Acts 8:30)
_____________________________________

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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: gordonb1] #167533
08/16/14 02:16 PM
08/16/14 02:16 PM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
There is certainly a lack of solid doctrine with some of the brethren. But lest we place the blame only on he seminary, consider that those of whom I spoke grew up in the church and were baptized in the fruitful waters of Oshkosh. Yes, the clergy is partially responsible, but we shouldn't expect our couple of hours a week with them to be the main source of our spiritual diet.

In any case, I'm trying to dig into our true beliefs regarding being born of water. Given that such a member was baptized by immersion by a duly authorized pastor of the church and is a member in good standing, have they been born of water as Jesus required?


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: gordonb1] #167534
08/16/14 02:22 PM
08/16/14 02:22 PM
G
gordonb1  Offline
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Active Member 2014

Veteran Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
Quebec
Originally Posted By: asygo
I know baptized members who were shocked when I said that baptism is a symbol of dying to self with Christ and being raised to walk in newness of life. They said they had never heard of such a thing. Were such "born of water"?

Arnold, I repeat here that a long standing church elder/Bible teacher
described a major upcoming It is Written crusade.
According to the training sessions,
new interests will be baptized before receiving Bible study.
________________________________

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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: asygo] #167535
08/16/14 04:15 PM
08/16/14 04:15 PM
G
gordonb1  Offline
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Active Member 2014

Veteran Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
Quebec
Originally Posted By: asygo
There is certainly a lack of solid doctrine with some of the brethren. But lest we place the blame only on he seminary, consider that those of whom I spoke grew up in the church and were baptized in the fruitful waters of Oshkosh. Yes, the clergy is partially responsible, but we shouldn't expect our couple of hours a week with them to be the main source of our spiritual diet.

'Raised in the church' may be part of the problem,
given natural deference to family tradition, Mosaic or Mafioso.
(Not sure that OshKosh waters always bode of healthy harvest:
http://advindicate.com/articles/2014/8/10/pathfinder-camporee-kicks-off-this-tuesday-in-oshkosh-wi)
(Could be a crack in that cistern - notably church leaders are molding young minds en masse)

True Arnold, the clergy are not solely responsible. But they are shepherds & guides, salaried from the Lord's treasury, to keep the sheep from going astray. Much more, they are to show the lambs how to feed themselves, that the first work might be discovered, the Ladder's first rung grasped.

Water baptism is an external statement of an internal understanding.
My mind is corrupt, filthy, fed by the world.
Cleanse me, grant me the living water.

"..the words that I speak unto you,
they are spirit, and they are life." (John 6:63)

"Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:
and the same day there were added unto them about
three thousand souls." (Acts 2:41)

"Wash me...create in me a clean heart.." (Psalm 51)
______________________________________

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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: asygo] #167536
08/16/14 04:50 PM
08/16/14 04:50 PM
G
gordonb1  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Veteran Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
Quebec
Originally Posted By: asygo
In any case, I'm trying to dig into our true beliefs regarding being born of water. Given that such a member was baptized by immersion by a duly authorized pastor of the church and is a member in good standing, have they been born of water as Jesus required?

Not sure what you mean by our true beliefs.

But your question juxtaposes conventional church baptism & membership
(approved by churches for membership of millions),
with Christ's requirement for access to the tree of life.

"..Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,
he cannot enter into the kingdom of God...Ye must be born again." (John 3:5-7)
___________________________________

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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: Daryl] #167537
08/16/14 10:50 PM
08/16/14 10:50 PM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,705
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"Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Nicodemus knew that Christ here referred to water baptism and the renewing of the heart by the Spirit of God...The fountain of the heart must be purified before the streams can become pure. He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility. There is no safety for one who has merely a legal religion, a form of godliness. The Christian's life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit. {DA 172.1}


"Every true Christian is a living fountain, ever receiving of the unfailing streams of grace, ever refreshed and ever refreshing those that are around him. {CSW 66.1}


"Christ has made baptism the sign of entrance to His spiritual kingdom. He has made this a positive condition with which all must comply who wish to be acknowledged as under the authority of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Before man can find a home in the church, before passing the threshold of God's spiritual kingdom, he is to receive the impress of the divine name, "The Lord our Righteousness." Jeremiah 23:6.... Those who are baptized in the threefold name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, at the very entrance of their Christian life declare publicly that they have forsaken the service of Satan and have become members of the royal family, children of the heavenly King. They have obeyed the command: "Come out from among them, and be ye separate, ... and touch not the unclean thing." And to them is fulfilled the promise: "I will receive you, and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters." 2 Corinthians 6:17, 18. {FLB 145.4}

"Henceforth the believer is to bear in mind that he is dedicated to God, to Christ, and to the Holy Spirit. He is to make all worldly considerations secondary to this new relation. . . . {FLB 145.5}

"The obligations in the spiritual agreement entered into at baptism are mutual. As human beings act their part with whole-hearted obedience, they have a right to pray, "Let it be known, Lord, that Thou art God in Israel." The fact that you have been baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, is an assurance that if you will claim their help, these powers will help you in every emergency.
{FLB 145.6}

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