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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: dedication] #167539
08/16/14 11:36 PM
08/16/14 11:36 PM
G
gordonb1  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Veteran Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
Quebec
Originally Posted By: dedication

"Christ has made baptism the sign of entrance to His spiritual kingdom. He has made this a positive condition with which all must comply who wish to be acknowledged as under the authority of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Before man can find a home in the church, before passing the threshold of God's spiritual kingdom, he is to receive the impress of the divine name, "The Lord our Righteousness." Jeremiah 23:6.... Those who are baptized in the threefold name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, at the very entrance of their Christian life declare publicly that they have forsaken the service of Satan and have become members of the royal family, children of the heavenly King. They have obeyed the command: "Come out from among them, and be ye separate, ... and touch not the unclean thing." And to them is fulfilled the promise: "I will receive you, and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters." 2 Corinthians 6:17, 18. {FLB 145.4}

Then what to make of a rock concert for Sabbath service, interspersed with preaching & skits,
played to a packed sanctuary of baptized members?
______________________

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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: Mountain Man] #167540
08/16/14 11:40 PM
08/16/14 11:40 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Again, it amazes me people can read the promises (the biblical descriptions above) and conclude believers are born again ignorant of certain cultivated traits of character. The idea that they ignorantly practice certain evil habits because Jesus chooses to leave them in darkness is unbiblical.

Sure it is unbiblical. God doesn't choose to leave anyone in darkness. The problem is in us, who can't see at once all the light God is trying to show us.

The nearer the Christian lives to God, the more he advances in divine illumination of mind. He has more distinct sense of his own littleness, discerns his defects of character, and sees his duty in the light in which God presents it. The more closely he draws to Jesus, the more he has a near and clear sense of his own defects which had before escaped his notice, and he sees the necessity of humbling himself under the mighty hand of God. ... Having his eye fixed upon the purity and perfection of Christ Jesus, and acknowledging and obeying God in all his ways, he is not blinded to his own failures and imperfections. When his deportment in the eyes of men is unblamable and irreprovable, God reads the intents and purposes of the heart. {TDG 16.3}

There is no such thing as an instantaneous sanctification. It is an every-day work. Says Paul, "I die daily" (1 Corinthians 15:31). He received a conversion daily to God. As the truth and Spirit of God revealed to him the defects in his character, he put away his wrong, died to self, and cleansed himself "from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Corinthians 7:1). . . . {UL 231.3}

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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: gordonb1] #167571
08/19/14 04:00 PM
08/19/14 04:00 PM
asygo  Offline
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Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
Originally Posted By: gordonb1
Originally Posted By: asygo
I know baptized members who were shocked when I said that baptism is a symbol of dying to self with Christ and being raised to walk in newness of life. They said they had never heard of such a thing. Were such "born of water"?

Arnold, I repeat here that a long standing church elder/Bible teacher
described a major upcoming It is Written crusade.
According to the training sessions,
new interests will be baptized before receiving Bible study.

And I heard of a pastor who was studying wih a couple, and the husband died before finishing. The suggestion was made to baptize posthumously. The idea was rejected.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: gordonb1] #167573
08/19/14 04:07 PM
08/19/14 04:07 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
Originally Posted By: gordonb1
Water baptism is an external statement of an internal understanding.

Given the "exceptions" on record, it seems the external statement is not what Jesus had in mind in John 3. It's even clearer once one considers the "external statement" for being born of the Spirit.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: gordonb1] #167574
08/19/14 04:12 PM
08/19/14 04:12 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
Originally Posted By: gordonb1
Originally Posted By: asygo
In any case, I'm trying to dig into our true beliefs regarding being born of water. Given that such a member was baptized by immersion by a duly authorized pastor of the church and is a member in good standing, have they been born of water as Jesus required?

Not sure what you mean by our true beliefs.

But your question juxtaposes conventional church baptism & membership
(approved by churches for membership of millions),
with Christ's requirement for access to the tree of life.

"..Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,
he cannot enter into the kingdom of God...Ye must be born again." (John 3:5-7)

That's the crux of my query. Is it right for us to teach that when Jesus said we MUST be born of water, that He meant baptism into the church? Is water immersion primarily salvific or evangelistic?


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: Daryl] #167577
08/19/14 06:23 PM
08/19/14 06:23 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
That's the crux of my query. Is it right for us to teach that when Jesus said we MUST be born of water, that He meant baptism into the church? Is water immersion primarily salvific or evangelistic?

Well, EGW gave this interpretation to the verse.

Nicodemus knew that Christ here referred to water baptism and the renewing of the heart by the Spirit of God. {DA 171.5}

Jesus also said, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16).

I think baptism is necessary for salvation, like faith, repentance, the new birth, good works... but it's not these things which save us. It's God who saves us.

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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: Daryl] #167578
08/19/14 09:17 PM
08/19/14 09:17 PM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,705
Canada
Baptism signifies a dying to self and the carnal nature and rising in newness of life in Christ Jesus.

For Jesus died bearing our sins thus we are now to reckon ourselves dead to sin and no longer under sins power, (Study Romans 6 on this).

Of course the actual physical act of Baptism is symbolic. If it becomes a mere ritual and has lost its meaning, it has lost its effectiveness. The act itself does not save, but when entered into with full understanding and experiencing its meaning then indeed it is salvific.

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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: Daryl] #167582
08/19/14 11:58 PM
08/19/14 11:58 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian
OP
Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,132
Nova Scotia, Canada
What about the thief on the cross who accepted Christ?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: Daryl] #167583
08/20/14 12:20 AM
08/20/14 12:20 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
M: Again, it amazes me people can read the promises (the biblical descriptions above) and conclude believers are born again ignorant of certain cultivated traits of character. The idea that they ignorantly practice certain evil habits because Jesus chooses to leave them in darkness is unbiblical.

R: Sure it is unbiblical. God doesn't choose to leave anyone in darkness. The problem is in us, who can't see at once all the light God is trying to show us.

Where in the Bible does it say Jesus withholds light because newborn believers are unready to receive it? unready to embrace it? unready to live in harmony with it? Jesus said - Teach them how to live in harmony with everything I commanded and then baptize them. But most people interpret His command to mean - Baptize them and then teach them how to live in harmony with everything I commanded. Jesus doesn't share all at once everything He commanded. It takes time - conversion is "a long, patient, protracted process". Not one of the 30 Bible references I posted say people are reborn ignorantly practicing certain sinful habits. Not even the SOP quotes you posted say so. "I die daily" does not mean - I sin daily.

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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: Daryl] #167586
08/20/14 02:10 AM
08/20/14 02:10 AM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,705
Canada
"In presenting the truth to others, we should follow the example of Jesus. He did not present a great mass of truth, to be accepted all at once. He led the inquiring mind from truth to truth, from lesson to lesson, opening up the significance of the Scripture, as they were able to bear it." {RH, October 14, 1890 par. 5}

Think of the Adventists prior to 1844.
They were Sunday keepers and pork eaters (including James and Ellen White).
Yet their whole focus was preparing to meet Christ in the air. They were baptized and living in harmony with the truth they knew.

They were confessing their sins (the ones they knew were sins) and searching their hearts wanting everything to be right between them and Christ. Their commitment to Christ far exceeds the commitment seen today.




Yet, they were still keeping Sunday and eating pork, and they didn't think it was sin.
Those truths were revealed much later.

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