Kland-- Here's something else I bet he wouldn't answer:....

Now Kland , why in the world would I want to waste time with you, at least Dedication brings "some" points (not many) that make sense to the table. You, I find seriously wanting (lacking solid knowledge, let alone good questions and comments) and I shall not waste my time.

Well, not an unexpected avoidance.

"Although the doctrine of the Kingdom may not appear quite so complete under the lens of Sister White’s writings as under the lens of the Rod, one dare not thus superficially reject either, but must the more studiously compare both views of the doctrine under the super-lens of the Bible. He must keep in mind that we are not given license to harmonize the Bible with any other writings, but are charged to measure all others by It.(Answerer, vol.2, Q-42)


God will do and perform "each of the covenant promises" He made to ancient Israel to His remnant church. One of those was the Davidical kingdom based in Israel.

"The Rod does not teach either that Jerusalem is to be rebuilt, or that it is not to be rebuilt, as the capital city of the Kingdom, but only that the Kingdom in its beginning is to be set up in the promised land. And in confirmation of this truth Ezekiel prophesies of--

A NEW DIVISION OF THE LAND
The prophet presents a division of the land entirely different from that in Joshua’s time (Josh. 17): it is to be in strips from the east to the west; Dan is to have the first portion in the north, and Gad, the last portion in the south between the borders of these two are to be the portions of the rest of the tribes; the city is to be in the midst of the land (Ezek. 48).

The fact that such a division of the Promised Land has never been made, shows that it is yet future. Also the fact that the sanctuary is to be there, whereas it is not to be in the earth made new (Rev. 21:22), again proves that this unique setup is pre-millennial.

In addition, the twofold fact that the name of the city is “The Lord is There,” and that its location, according to the division of the land, necessarily must in some respects be different from that of old Jerusalem, shows that Jerusalem of today, the city proper, may not at all be rebuilt as a capital city of the coming Kingdom. (See Tract No. 12 The World Yesterday, Today, Tomorrow, 1941 Edition, pp. 52, 53).

If the Bible makes Itself clear on any subject It certainly does so on the subject of the Kingdom. And rightly so, for the Kingdom is the Christian’s crowning hope,

Satan’s Constant Target, the People’s Repeated Stumbling Block.

That the great controversy between Christ and Satan is over this crowning hope, the Kingdom, is seen from the Lord’s repeated instructions in the prophecies, in the types, and in the parables; from Satan’s constant effort to keep the human race out of it; and last, from human beings repeatedly being defeated in their warfare to become heirs of it.

Working determinedly from the beginning to plunge all humanity into hell, Satan conceived his major strategy of misleading them concerning the Kingdom. He succeeded with most of the Jews because they wanted the Kingdom set up before its appointed time or not at all. And he is succeeding with many of the Laodiceans today because now, when the time appointed actually has come, they want to have it later or not at all! What a paradox! What an irony! Indeed, as history repeats itself, so does folly!

The Bible says: “In the days of these kings [the kings that are symbolized by the ten toes of the great image] shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed. ...It shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms.” Dan. 2:44.

Observe that “the stone” (the Kingdom) does not become a great mountain until after it smites the image, showing that the Kingdom begins in its infancy with only the first fruits, who soon stand on Mount Zion with the Lamb, and who later, after they have garnered in the second fruits of the living, smite the nations; finally there come from the grave the saved of all ages fully to make up the “great mountain”---the Kingdom complete!

In the face of these clear-cut and repeatedly chronicled prophecies, may no one be so foolish as to say, as did the Jews in response to Ezekiel’s prophecies, “The vision that he seeth is for many days to come, and he prophesieth of the times that are far off” (Ezek. 12:27), thereby bringing upon his head the same dreadful doom."(Answerer, vol. 2, Q-42)

"In the manifestation of that power which lightens the earth with the glory of God, they (SDA church leadership) will see only something, which in their blindness, they think dangerous. Something will arouse their fears, and they will brace themselves to resist it." (Maranatha, p.219)

Actually I do think Houteff is making predictions that places a lot of things "a way off' -- that's one thing I see happening in a lot of people's efforts to map out the future.

When in reality we are on the very brink of the end of time. Prophecy is fulfilling at an astonishing rate exactly as Adventists have believed for over a century. People scoffed that Adventists were way off the mark, as the world built up their futurist interpretation of prophecy. But now it's happening! And so many don't even see it!
So many are chasing after some futurist style of interpretation they can't even see how things are shaping up for the final crises.

No -- there is no time in the future for God's people to establish some earthly kingdom over in Palestine. The futurists will attempt it but it will result in the end of the world and utter chaos.

No -- there is no time way off in the future in which to proclaim the last message to the world. THE TIME IS NOW.

Indeed, soon Christ will come and all earthly kingdoms will come to an abrupt end. Christ's kingdom is not of this world.
His kingdom is NEW JERUSALEM.

The stone SMITES the image, and the image (representing earthly kingdoms) is blown away like chaff in the wind, and no place is found for it. GONE! No more chance to convert anyone. Everyone who is to be saved must be saved PRIOR to that.


Indeed -- we MUST NOT put off our salvation, or the salvation of anyone way off in the future, thinking there is some way off future date when we will share the gospel with the world.

THE TIME IS NOW!

MOUNT ZION

When the new testament speaks of Mount Zion what is it referring to?

We realize that in the old testament Jerusalem was located on "Mt. Zion" and was where God's people came to worship God.

But this is a type, it's not the REAL end time meaning.

The foundational WRONG premise of futurism is to make the "type" the real thing. They take the types and refuse to acknowledge the reality in prophetic interpretation.

"Zion", from its original meaning as a hill in Jerusalem, goes onward even in the Old Testament to signify the high calling of God for His people.

Mount Zion is revealed in the New Testament as the heavenly center of God’s presence and glory!

In Hebrews 12:22-24 we read:
“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.”

Notice, this is not speaking of the future, but of the Christian experience of faith.
We, as Christians, can come boldly before the throne of God, through the name of Christ.
Christ's followers are citizens of the New Jerusalem, registered as such in heaven.
They are partakers of the New Covenant which Jesus is mediating on our behalf.

To every genuine Christian that comes before God's heavenly throne in worship, this verse says: " you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem".


In the OT the earthly city of Jerusalem called Mount Zion, was where the throne of the king and the worship of God was located; but we can come by faith before God's heavenly throne and worship Him by faith in the heavenly city.

Heb. 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
10:20 By a new and living way, which he has consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh
10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith,

Revelation 14 is not speaking of the battle scarred mount Zion over in Palestine, it is speaking of the NEW TESTAMENT Mount Zion. Don't go to Palestine to find Christ, Christ through His Holy Spirit is with His faithful where ever they may be geographically.

In Revelation 14:1-3 we read, “Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.”

This scripture reveals that those who will stand with the Lamb on the heavenly Mount Zion will be singing their worship before the throne, the four living creatures, and the elders. This clearly shows us that the heavenly Mount Zion is at the throne of God Almighty as described in Revelation chapter 4. So just as the earthly Zion was the place of the throne and of worship in ancient times, we find that the true Zion in heaven is at the throne of God and is the real center of worship.

Those who by faith seek the heavenly Zion, will someday literally stand before God's throne in the heavenly Zion.

I find it interesting that he said, "let's go Kland show us what you got", but when I just ask a simple question about whether such a bold statement is disprovable....
...nothing.

I think he paid me a compliment! He was ready to 'go at it', but he quickly realized he was unable to "go".

The angels of God in their messages to men represent time as very short. Thus it has always been presented to me. It is true that time has continued longer than we expected in the early days of this message. Our Saviour did not appear as soon as we hoped. But has the word of the Lord failed? Never! It should be remembered that the promises and threatenings of God are alike conditional. {1SM 67.8}

Ded-The stone SMITES the image, and the image (representing earthly kingdoms) is blown away like chaff in the wind, and no place is found for it. GONE! No more chance to convert anyone. Everyone who is to be saved must be saved PRIOR to that.

The Daniel 2 study is very deep. soon we hope to visit that here. We can assure those who are interested the "stone" is NOT Christ. Hopefully time will allow it soon.

That is the way Adventists have always interpreted these promises as they pertained to ancient Israel.

History of understanding concerning Daniel 2's stone kingdom.

1. Early Christian writers were fairly united in saying
"the stone cut out without hands"
referred to Christ's incarnation; The Stone was Christ --
And the smiting of the image by the stone was generally understood to apply to the second advent.



2. The Catholic View
In about the third century a gradual shift appears in the understanding --
The stone still being referred to as Christ's incarnation, but now some began to think the "smiting of the image" was the Christian church filling the earth.
The fifth-century theologian Augustine maintained that this stone kingdom was the Roman Catholic Church. Augustine (354-430), in his book "The City of God" emphasized the idea of the kingdom of God as the Catholic church ruling on earth and that even now his saints reign with Him."

Augustine was "bad news" for groups who weren't willing to bow to the emerging authority of the Roman Church. His book was written to exalt the Roman church and he built the theories that led to the medieval religio-political state church.
Thus in the centuries following the whole stone and kingdom was depicted as the Catholic church. After all -- Peter (the stone) was supposedly the forerunner of all the popes with the keys of the kingdom.

This still seems to be pretty much the Catholic understanding -- they see the Catholic church moving ahead to the final triumph when their idea of the "stone kingdom" (ie the Catholic church, led by the Pope) will fill the whole earth. And the pope will sit in what they consider his God appointed place at the head.

An interesting comment from "The Catholic Cabinet, July 1843 an article entitled "Fulfilment of Prophecy -- The Church" p.133






3. The Reformation view
The view that the Catholic Church was the stone and kingdom was rejected by the reformers as the papacy was identified as the antichrist of prophecy. The Historicist method of interpretation was firmly in place outlining the four kingdoms of the image, and identifying the little horn of Daniel 7 as the papacy.
They viewed the stone of Daniel 2, as Christ, but they were divided as to whether it referred to Christ's first coming when He established the "spiritual kingdom" or His second coming in a catastrophic "smashing" . There was no real consensus.
Some looked to the rabbis for ideas -- the Jews of course still waiting for the Messiah to come and set up His kingdom in Jerusalem.


4. POST REFORMATION
The counter Reformation brought in Preterit interpretation --
Preterism holds to the stone referring to Christ establishing the spiritual kingdom at His first coming. The kingdom is the dominion of Christ over earth, which he obtained at his ascension in heaven. His second coming was spiritual (intangible/invisible) in the destruction of Jerusalem. The church is the "new Jerusalem" and becomes the earthly seat of Christ's kingdom and throne.

The counter Reformation also brought in the Futurist interpretation, which originally held that the stone was the spiritual kingdom which would one day fill the earth, this was adapted by Dispensationalists -- which hold to the stone being the Messianic kingdom (millennium reign of Christ) in Palestine (Jerusalem).


This is not an exhaustive study but a generalized overview of the tends in Christian History.

When William Miller came on the scene, the concept of the world getting better, and moving ahead to an earthly utopia type kingdom was very strong within Christian denominations.

Millers view of the second coming as "the end of the world" and meeting Christ in the air, was a radical departure from the general understanding of Daniel Two.

After the great disappointment, many of the Millerites rejected Miller's teachings, and returned to their churches and former beliefs.

Pioneer Seventh-day Adventists, however, could not turn their backs on what they had found to be truth, and went to their Bibles to dig for understanding and wisdom.

They discovered the sanctuary truths and the answer to the 2300 days.
They continued to refute any concept of a utopic type of kingdom on this earth prior to 1000 years in heaven, and continued to look to the second coming of Christ as "the end of the world" when they would be caught up into air to be with Christ in heaven for 1000 years.


Studies of a utopic, present world, type of kingdom, is not "new light" at all, it is the basic belief of Catholicism that has also taken over the protestant churches.

Actually the Protestant Churches didn't shake off the earthly kingdom idea during the reformation. They never grasped that a literal kingdom and religion were never again to be merged in this world of intolerance. Thus we see in history, reformers persecuting other reforming groups, trying to establish "kingdom" like territories where everyone worshipped according to the original reformers beliefs. The Puritans escaped from the English Anglicans who were persecuting them. Yet, once in America the Puritans persecuted the Quakers and other groups believing different. It wasn't until America formed it's constitution that people could actually worship freely.

We are heading for another "kingdom" of intolerance, and it will bring in the time of trouble as never before seen in earth's history.