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Re: Thy Kingdom Come
[Re: Godsloveandlaw]
#170869
12/26/14 07:04 AM
12/26/14 07:04 AM
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By the way --
the last quote in blue in GLL's post was NOT by EGW.
It was by a former Conference President, Taylor Bunch, published in the “Signs of the Times, June 20, 1950”.
There is not a consensus among Adventists on this subject of who comprises the 144,000 and who comprises the great multitude.
However, Adventists do NOT believe in a temporal theocratic kingdom in literal Jerusalem prior to the second coming of Christ.
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Re: Thy Kingdom Come
[Re: dedication]
#170928
12/28/14 06:55 AM
12/28/14 06:55 AM
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Ded- Come on GLL -- you aren't really here to learn.
You are here to indoctrinate people into Houteff's theology -- right?False. I am here to learn and share the Truth. it is you who shows you are not here to learn, rather in pompous (as someone else mentioned) style, try to cover up truth with your private un-inspired interpretations. For example, and just one example-- After showing you clearly and repeatedly that "angels" (from SOP) are to do the solemn slaying in Ezekiel 9 church judgment--you continued to say they are "men". Now if that is not wanting to learn I don't know what is  Ded- The problem is simply that I have previously studied into his views and found them sadly wanting, thus I know where things are going, even if the initial words seem reasonable.Ok if they are "wanting", then as brother Houteff said-- "show us something better." For instance you slam his interpretation on Zech. 4 , yet just like the thief who takes and doesn't give back, you don't offer any idea what they prophecy means. I truly think you almost think of yourself as some kind of inside interpreter, a high exalted class 'private interpreter". Yet truth seekers know that God's word dis-allows any private interpretations.(2 Peter 1:20-21) But give it a try as you like to do, we're waiting for your Zech. 4 interpretation. Ded-Basically -- Houteff will say "Jerusalem" in prophecy is symbolic of the SDA church when referring to passages like Ezekiel 9. Insisting that Adventists must all be killed prior to the Sunday laws being enforced and prior to the "loud cry".First of all SOP says the Ezekiel 9 will be "fulfilled to the letter" (1888 materials, p.1303) So SOP clearly was "in context" addressing the SDA church as seen by the prior pages 1300-1302. Second, SOP again warns the church about the "clean work" God will do (Ezek. 9) upon the church. "And I saw that the Lord was whetting His sword in heaven to cut them down. Oh, that every lukewarm professor could realize the clean work that God is about to make among His professed people! Dear friends, do not deceive yourselves concerning your condition. You cannot deceive God." ( Testimonies, vol.1, p.190) It is SOP who first connected "Jerusalem " to the SDA church, not V.T Houteff. Ded- Then suddenly we are told, "Jerusalem" is literally that old city over their in Palestine, as the Shepherd Rod believers (144,000) need to head over to Jerusalem supposedly to establish a kingdom, a theocracy WITH A HUMAN KING, (which they call an antitype David) over there. This is supposed to be a kingdom of peace and safety, from which they go forth "as battle axes to break in pieces the nations, " ( verse in Jer. 51:20) to proclaim the loud cry from literal Jerusalem, gathering the "great multitude" from all over the world, including most of Babylon, to this earthly "kingdom"). All before Christ's second coming.Dedication is obviously missing one point--God will do and perform "each of the covenant promises" He made to ancient Israel to His remnant church. One of those was the Davidical kingdom based in Israel. Of course dedication wants us to ignore this clear SOP reference. Her fight is not with brother Houteff it's with SOP against SOP.
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Re: Thy Kingdom Come
[Re: Godsloveandlaw]
#170941
12/29/14 04:04 AM
12/29/14 04:04 AM
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No GLL, I am learning all the time -- just because I see your understanding widely departing from truth, does not mean I am not constantly learning and praying and studying.
It's very plain in GC 656, when and who will be fulfilling Ezekiel nines dreadful scenes -- and no it isn't angels.
Also, no -- I'm no "private" interpreter-- that's just another strawman. I seek my answers in scripture and in EGW's writings, as well as being open to the signs of the times, and how God has led the church in the past, and like everyone else -- God gives us minds to understand things, comparing scripture with scripture, comparing it with EGW writings. Everyone MUST be settled in their own minds as the Holy Spirit convicts them.
You are convinced Houteff has ultimate truth, I am convinced that he does NOT.
I see is that even though Houteff takes pieces of truth from these writings, the end conclusions he reaches are very different.
I have found he usually begins his studies with truth (which we find in scripture and EGW) but then he goes off on one of his private interpretations away from truth. In this he continues to take short quotes here and there from EGW and weaves them in to his ideas, to make it appear, he is in agreement-- though he is not.
If you REALLY want to know what EGW writes, a person needs to READ her writings WITHOUT Houteff's weavings.
The one who exalts himself is Houteff! Just about every prophecy he has bent to exalt himself as the infallible "private interpreter". The SR interpretation of Zechariah 4 just takes the cake on that one. There he is presented as the ONLY ultimate interpreter of scripture.
Also, you did not answer my question, only filled your whole post with accusations against me.
If as you say "Jerusalem" (which is spoken of as the literal city in Ezekiel) is symbolic of the SDA church scattered all over the world, in Ezekiel 9.
Then why do you maintain that "Jerusalem" be understood as a literal city in the prophecies of "blessings"?
Nor am I ignoring anything --
You want an earthly temporal kingdom with a human king over in Palestine. But I've read plenty of inspired things that, that is not the way it will be fulfilled to the church.
Indeed the true church is to proclaim the Three ANGEL'S message to the world -- and we are to do so NOW, we are NOT to wait for some human David, or returned dead (any returned dead prior to the seventh plague will be impersonating spirits) to lead us to war torn Palestine.
But those no more war, no more destroying, etc promises --
those blessings will be fulfilled in the NEW EARTH, in the New Jerusalem that comes down from heaven after the 1000 years.
I've explained it enough times that you should know that by now.
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Re: Thy Kingdom Come
[Re: Godsloveandlaw]
#170942
12/29/14 04:23 AM
12/29/14 04:23 AM
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This thread is called "They Kingdom Come"
That is part of the Lord's prayer.
How does that kingdom come?
"The kingdom of God's grace is now being established, as day by day hearts that have been full of sin and rebellion yield to the sovereignty of His love. But the full establishment of the kingdom of His glory will not take place until the second coming of Christ to this world. {AG 347.3}
Not until the personal advent of Christ can His people receive the kingdom. The Saviour said: "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations. . . . Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matthew 25:31-34). . . . When the Son of man comes, the dead are raised incorruptible and the living are changed. By this great change they are prepared to receive the kingdom. . . .
Man in his present state is mortal, corruptible; but the kingdom of God will be incorruptible, enduring forever. Therefore man in his present state cannot enter the kingdom of God. But when Jesus comes, He confers immortality upon His people; and then He calls them to inherit the kingdom of which they have hitherto been only heirs. {AG 347.4}
If "ye are Christ's," "all things are yours" (1 Corinthians 3:23, 21). But you are as a child who is not yet placed in control of his inheritance. God does not entrust to you your precious possession, lest Satan by his wily arts should beguile you, as he did the first pair in Eden. Christ holds it for you, safe beyond the spoiler's reach. {AG 347.5}
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Re: Thy Kingdom Come
[Re: Godsloveandlaw]
#170959
12/29/14 02:57 PM
12/29/14 02:57 PM
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SDA
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Ded- Come on GLL -- you aren't really here to learn.
You are here to indoctrinate people into Houteff's theology -- right?
False. I am here to learn and share the Truth.
Could you tell us what your opinion of Houteff is? Who is he and of what relevance he has to anything?
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Re: Thy Kingdom Come
[Re: dedication]
#170976
12/30/14 04:34 AM
12/30/14 04:34 AM
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Ded-It's very plain in GC 656, when and who will be fulfilling Ezekiel nines dreadful scenes -- and no it isn't angels.
Ezekiel 9 --"He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand.And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.
And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?
Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not.And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head." (Ezek. 9:1-10)[/color]
Ok let's look again at Dedications idea that Ezekiel 9 will be performed, not by angels, but by men (human beings) versus that from Inspiration.
Keep in mind that the Word says that there are to be two separations (one from the church and one form the world).
"The angel with the writer's ink horn is to place a mark [SEAL] upon the foreheads of all who are separated from sin and sinners, and the destroying angel follows this angel." E. G. White, (Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Vol. 4, 1161).
Angels Read the Mark—"What is the seal of the living God, which is placed in the foreheads of His people? It is a mark which angels, but not human eyes, can read; for the destroying angel must see this mark of redemption."
7BC 968.13
"The time of the harvest will fully determine the character of the two classes specified under the figure of the tares and the wheat. The work of separation is given to the angels of God, and not committed into the hands of any man." TM 47.2
"Angels keep a faithful record of every man's work, and as judgment passes upon the house of God, the sentence of each is recorded by his name, and the angel is commissioned to spare not the unfaithful servants, but to cut them down at the time of slaughter." (Test. for the Church, vol. 1, p.198)
When the destroying angel was to pass through Egypt, to destroy the first-born of man and beast, Israel was commanded to gather their children and families into their houses with them, and then mark their door-posts with blood, that the destroying angel might pass by their dwellings, and if they failed to go through with this process, there was no difference made between them and the Egyptians.
The destroying angel is soon to go forth again, not to destroy the first-born alone, but “to slay utterly old and young, both men, women and little children” who have not the mark.
Parents, if you wish to save your children, separate them from the world, keep them from the company of wicked children; for if you suffer them to go with wicked children, you cannot prevent them from partaking of their wickedness and being corrupted. It is your solemn duty to watch over your children, to choose the society at all times for them. (RH September 19, 1854, par. 12)
Do we need any more to dis-prove Dedication's private interpretations?
By the way, Dedication (which means Dedication to falsehood in my opinion) weaves so many false ideas it's hard to keep track , therefore i will address one false hood at a time to see where she will go with it. The truth will not be denied , and let us watch carefully for it!
Last edited by Godsloveandlaw; 12/30/14 05:18 AM.
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Re: Thy Kingdom Come
[Re: kland]
#170988
12/30/14 09:22 AM
12/30/14 09:22 AM
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Ded- Come on GLL -- you aren't really here to learn.
You are here to indoctrinate people into Houteff's theology -- right?
False. I am here to learn and share the Truth.
Could you tell us what your opinion of Houteff is? Who is he and of what relevance he has to anything? I see he didn't answer -- but Shepherd Rod look to Houteff as the ultimate interpreter of scripture (as seen in their Zech. 4 "lesson") GLL has made it quite clear that he thinks Houteff is Elijah the prophet to come. Thus of course anyone that disagrees with Houteff's teachings is considered as "false teachers" and if they are Adventists they are think God will send his angels to kill them all so the Shepherd Rod people won't have any opposition to setting up their kingdom in ancient Jerusalem. Adventists, however, have refuted that idea of gaining and having a kingdom on earth, since ever there was an Adventist. So using EGW or Seventh-day Adventist name and teachings while yet making a temporal theocratic kingdom their main message, is totally inconsistent and contradictory.
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Re: Thy Kingdom Come
[Re: Godsloveandlaw]
#170989
12/30/14 11:12 AM
12/30/14 11:12 AM
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It's very plain in GC 656, when and who will be fulfilling Ezekiel nines dreadful scenes -- and no it isn't angels. This is the explanation EGW herself gives: When the voice of God turns the captivity of His people, there is a terrible awakening of those who have lost all in the great conflict of life. While probation continued they were blinded by Satan's deceptions, and they justified their course of sin.... Ministers and people see that they have not sustained the right relation to God. They see that they have rebelled against the Author of all just and righteous law. The setting aside of the divine precepts gave rise to thousands of springs of evil, discord, hatred, iniquity, until the earth became one vast field of strife, one sink of corruption. This is the view that now appears to those who rejected truth and chose to cherish error. No language can express the longing which the disobedient and disloyal feel for that which they have lost forever--eternal life....
The people see that they have been deluded. They accuse one another of having led them to destruction; but all unite in heaping their bitterest condemnation upon the ministers. Unfaithful pastors have prophesied smooth things; they have led their hearers to make void the law of God and to
656
persecute those who would keep it holy. Now, in their despair, these teachers confess before the world their work of deception. The multitudes are filled with fury. "We are lost!" they cry, "and you are the cause of our ruin;" and they turn upon the false shepherds. The very ones that once admired them most will pronounce the most dreadful curses upon them. The very hands that once crowned them with laurels will be raised for their destruction. The swords which were to slay God's people are now employed to destroy their enemies. Everywhere there is strife and bloodshed. {GC 655.4}
"A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the Lord hath a controversy with the nations, He will plead with all flesh; He will give them that are wicked to the sword." Jeremiah 25:31. For six thousand years the great controversy has been in progress; the Son of God and His heavenly messengers have been in conflict with the power of the evil one, to warn, enlighten, and save the children of men. Now all have made their decisions; the wicked have fully united with Satan in his warfare against God. The time has come for God to vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. Now the controversy is not alone with Satan, but with men. "The Lord hath a controversy with the nations;" "He will give them that are wicked to the sword." {GC 656.1}
The mark of deliverance has been set upon those "that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done." Now the angel of death goes forth, represented in Ezekiel's vision by the men with the slaughtering weapons, to whom the command is given: "Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary." Says the prophet: "They began at the ancient men which were before the house." Ezekiel 9:1-6. The work of destruction begins among those who have professed to be the spiritual guardians of the people. The false watchmen are the first to fall. There are none to pity or to spare. Men, women, maidens, and little children perish together. {GC 656.2}
"The Lord cometh out of His place to punish the inhabitants...
"At the coming of Christ the wicked are blotted from the face of the whole earth,—consumed with the spirit of his mouth, and destroyed by the brightness of his glory. Christ takes his people to the city of God, and the earth is emptied of its inhabitants. “Behold, the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.” “The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled; for the Lord hath spoken this word.” “Because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate; therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned.” [Isaiah 24:1, 3, 5, 6.] {GC88 657.1}
Notice, she writes: Now the angel of death goes forth, When? This is after probation has closed for the world. During the seventh plague when God delivers His people. What happens? "The swords which were to slay God's people are now employed to destroy their enemies. Everywhere there is strife and bloodshed. {GC 655.4} How does it end? " At the coming of Christ the wicked are blotted from the face of the whole earth--consumed with the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the brightness of His glory. Christ takes His people to the City of God," (GC 657) GLL writes: Keep in mind that the Word says that there are to be two separations (one from the church and one form the world).So he wants you to keep in mind Houteff's interpretations-- but in reality there is only ONE close of probation - when Jesus closes the sanctuary work: and one general destruction at the very end, that begins when the deceived turn on those who led them away from truth and ends with Christ's coming when all unsaved perish. The shaking/shifting of the church is NOT Ezekiel 9, it is a great TEST to come that will separate the committed from the uncommitted within the church. Multitudes give up the truth, to follow visions of earthly peace and acceptance, they will make life difficult for those who remain faithful to the truths in Christ, and yes, most will be alive when God delivers his people, and then the apostate experience awful regret. and it is then during the seventh plague that second part of Eze. 9 takes place. "The angel with the writer's ink horn is to place a mark [SEAL] upon the foreheads of all who are separated from sin and sinners, and the destroying angel follows this angel." E. G. White, (Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Vol. 4, 1161).It's not literally an angel with an ink horn writing a mark on people's foreheads -- further study reveals it's the Holy Spirit transforming the mind and character of the individual. (Eph. 1:13; 4:30, Heb. 10:16) "Just as soon as the people of God are sealed in their foreheads--it is not any seal or mark that can be seen, but a settling into the truth, both intellectually and spiritually, so they cannot be moved" (4BC 1161) Though angels do record it in the "books of heaven" and stand by us protecting us from the evil angels and helping us in many ways. The sealing takes place BEFORE probation closes, then probation closes, the plagues are poured out, God delivers His people Notice in GC 656 EGW says Now the angel of death goes forth, and how did things happen? Read pages 655 to 657 of Great Controversy again.
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Re: Thy Kingdom Come
[Re: Godsloveandlaw]
#170990
12/30/14 11:50 AM
12/30/14 11:50 AM
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Angels Read the Mark—"What is the seal of the living God, which is placed in the foreheads of His people? It is a mark which angels, but not human eyes, can read; for the destroying angel must see this mark of redemption."
7BC 968.13
When Christ comes, the angels are sent forth to gather the elect from the four corners of the earth, while the unsaved perish. To be gathered is to live, to be "left" is to be destroyed. Yes, the angels need to know who the sealed are!
"The time of the harvest will fully determine the character of the two classes specified under the figure of the tares and the wheat. The work of separation is given to the angels of God, and not committed into the hands of any man." TM 47.2
Now, Houteff, has his own interpretations of the harvest.
So we need see what EGW means when she writes about the harvest.
"The tares and the wheat are to grow together until the harvest; and the harvest is the end of probationary time. {COL 71.3}
Now Houteff will interject that it's only the end of probationary time for the church. BUT EGW does not say that, she says the end of probationary time.
And a little further EGW is plain.
" The Saviour does not point forward to a time when all the tares become wheat. The wheat and tares grow together until the harvest, the end of the world. Then the tares are bound in bundles to be burned, and the wheat is gathered into the garner of God. COL 72
The harvest is the end of the world, not some early end of probation for the church with life continuing for a long time yet as SRods build a kingdom and from this safe place go out to evangelize the world.
As we see in a lot of this SRod will quote EGW, but they reject her explanations of her own words.
Here are more explanations from her own pen:
Speaking of church members: "Unless they repent...They will fall in the general destruction of the wicked, represented by the work of the five men bearing slaughter weapons.
""But the general slaughter of all those who do not thus see the wide contrast between sin and righteousness, and do not feel as those do who stand in the counsel of God and receive the mark, is described in the order to the five men with slaughter weapons: 3T 267
EGW knows nothing about two destructions of the unsaved -- just one.
She states: —Both the parable of the tares and that of the net plainly teach that there is no time when all the wicked will turn to God. The wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest. The good and the bad fish are together drawn ashore for a final separation. {COL 123.1}
Again, these parables teach that there is to be no probation after the judgment. When the work of the gospel is completed, there immediately follows the separation between the good and the evil, and the destiny of each class is forever fixed. {COL 123.2}
Notice in that paragraph where EGW places the separation of wheat and tares -- it's after the work of the gospel is completed -- probation is ended.
Yet Houteff teaches that just concerns Adventists, and that the gospel work is just beginning at that time
So once again the whole thing centers around Houteff --
accept Houteff's kingdom theory or expect "angels" to kill you.
But the kingdom Houteff presents is a counterfeit -- ruled by a human antitypical David as king -- temporal, a supposed "theocracy" combination of church and state, prior to Christ's second coming.
We do not look to a religious kingdom with a human king on this old world. Surely no Adventist would be fooled by such a teaching as that.
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Re: Thy Kingdom Come
[Re: dedication]
#171012
12/31/14 04:09 PM
12/31/14 04:09 PM
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SDA
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Ded- Come on GLL -- you aren't really here to learn.
You are here to indoctrinate people into Houteff's theology -- right?
False. I am here to learn and share the Truth.
Could you tell us what your opinion of Houteff is? Who is he and of what relevance he has to anything? I see he didn't answer -- but Shepherd Rod look to Houteff as the ultimate interpreter of scripture (as seen in their Zech. 4 "lesson") GLL has made it quite clear that he thinks Houteff is Elijah the prophet to come. Does seem odd he wouldn't stand up to support his own prophet. Here's something else I bet he wouldn't answer: Ac 15:15 "And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
16 'After this I will return And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD, Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, Says the LORD who does all these things.'
Why did James quote Amos at that point and in that context? Do you think he meant the literal tabernacle of David? I think obviously not. So what did James mean by that?
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