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Re: Thy Kingdom Come
[Re: dedication]
#171522
01/27/15 06:11 AM
01/27/15 06:11 AM
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Ded-That is the way Adventists have always interpreted these promises as they pertained to ancient Israel.
Not true, see below --
"Of special value to God's church on earth today--the keepers of His vineyard--are the messages of counsel and admonition given through the prophets who have made plain His eternal purpose in behalf of mankind. In the teachings of the prophets, His love for the lost race and His plan for their salvation are clearly revealed.
The story of Israel's call, of their successes and failures, of their restoration to divine favor, of their rejection of the Master of the vineyard, and of the carrying out of the plan of the ages by a goodly remnant to whom are to be fulfilled all the covenant promises--this has been the theme of God's messengers to His church throughout the centuries that have passed. And today God's message to His church--to those who are occupying His vineyard as faithful husbandmen--is none other than that spoken through the prophet of old:
"Sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine. I the Lord do keep it; I will water it every moment: lest any hurt it, I will keep it night and day." Isaiah 27:2, 3.
Let Israel hope in God."
Israel today= SDA church. This is very important to remember because many prophecies that say "Israel" directly mean the SDA church.
"Each of the ancient prophets spoke less for their time than for ours, so that their prophesying is in force for us." (Selected Messages, vol. 3, p.338)
Last edited by Godsloveandlaw; 01/27/15 06:19 AM.
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Re: Thy Kingdom Come
[Re: dedication]
#171523
01/27/15 06:30 AM
01/27/15 06:30 AM
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Ded-1. Early Christian writers were fairly united in saying "the stone cut out without hands" referred to Christ's incarnation; The Stone was Christ -- And the smiting of the image by the stone was generally understood to apply to the second advent.
This is a perfect example of someone who "makes flesh His strength." These early pioneers were not prophets. One thing is sure they were not one of the Zech. 4 tubes (prophet of God) that were authorized to go into the trees to pull out truth(prophecies) for His people. Consequently we cannot stand upon flesh in this important study as Dedication would like us to do.
FACT: Ellen White never said the stone was Christ. Infact, a brother Mueller wrote to the EGW estate in 1971 asking for verification of this point. Arthur White responded that no writings from her pen can be found supporting this assumed "truth."
Now, why would we continue with a report already shown with a classic error right from the start? This is why I continue to warn people about Dedication and her private ideas. Let's be "Bureans" and not settle for a human idea, let's search out the real Truth. Because Truth=Jesus.
Last edited by Godsloveandlaw; 01/27/15 06:32 AM.
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Re: Thy Kingdom Come
[Re: Godsloveandlaw]
#171525
01/27/15 06:51 AM
01/27/15 06:51 AM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
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The angels of God in their messages to men represent time as very short. Thus it has always been presented to me. It is true that time has continued longer than we expected in the early days of this message. Our Saviour did not appear as soon as we hoped. But has the word of the Lord failed? Never! It should be remembered that the promises and threatenings of God are alike conditional. {1SM 67.8}
That is the way Adventists have always interpreted these promises as they pertained to ancient Israel. Not true, see below -- So are you saying the statement by EGW is not true? You want a temporary kingdom, one that will be destroyed at the second coming, earthly kingdom as the crowning event of our hope? Do you deny that these covenant promises will be fulfilled in a much grander eternal kingdom? And if you really believe that the terms Israel and Jerusalem refer to the people of God, then why would we even need to change back to thinking Israel and Jerusalem mean the literal city over there in Palestine? The people of God are citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem -- a city that is now in heaven where the throne of God and the Lamb is. Abraham wandered as a stranger on earth, and looked forward to that heavenly city whose builder and maker is God. (See Heb.11) That heavenly city will one day (after the 1000 years) descend to earth. It is so large it will completely cover the whole of Palestine and then some (not just the few acres of old Jerusalem) The earth will be cleansed of all traces of sin and recreated -- that is the inheritance Christ has purchased for His covenant keeping people. That is the crowning hope !! That is where our focus is to be, and the kingdom to which we are to invite all our friends and neighbors. Not some temporary kingdom over there in war torn Palestine, where a human king is to be the anti typical David and sit on the throne.
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Re: Thy Kingdom Come
[Re: dedication]
#171527
01/27/15 07:22 AM
01/27/15 07:22 AM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
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History of understanding concerning Daniel 2's stone kingdom. 1. Early Christian writers were fairly united in saying "the stone cut out without hands" referred to Christ's incarnation; The Stone was Christ -- And the smiting of the image by the stone was generally understood to apply to the second advent. 2. The Catholic View In about the third century a gradual shift appears in the understanding -- The stone still being referred to as Christ's incarnation, but now some began to think the "smiting of the image" was the Christian church filling the earth. The fifth-century theologian Augustine maintained that this stone kingdom was the Roman Catholic Church. Augustine (354-430), in his book "The City of God" emphasized the idea of the kingdom of God as the Catholic church ruling on earth and that even now his saints reign with Him." Augustine was "bad news" for groups who weren't willing to bow to the emerging authority of the Roman Church. His book was written to exalt the Roman church and he built the theories that led to the medieval religio-political state church. Thus in the centuries following the whole stone and kingdom was depicted as the Catholic church. After all -- Peter (the stone) was supposedly the forerunner of all the popes with the keys of the kingdom. This still seems to be pretty much the Catholic understanding -- they see the Catholic church moving ahead to the final triumph when their idea of the "stone kingdom" (ie the Catholic church, led by the Pope) will fill the whole earth. And the pope will sit in what they consider his God appointed place at the head. An interesting comment from "The Catholic Cabinet, July 1843 an article entitled "Fulfilment of Prophecy -- The Church" p.133 It was the church, or kingdom of Jesus Christ, that crushed the power of Rome-- the barbarians were only the ministers of God's vengeance, which the blood of the saints, slain by that guilty power, had at length provoked.... The rapid diffusion and universal extent of the Catholic church is an obvious fulfilment of that part of the prophecy, in which the little "stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth"; while the continuance of that Church is as clear an accomplishment of the prediction, that the kingdom which God himself set up was never to be destroyed-- was never to be delivered up to another people: while it should consume all opposing powers, itself should stand for ever. Will anyone pretend to deny that the history of the past, as well as the experience of the present, does not show that such is the Catholic Church? 3. The Reformation view The view that the Catholic Church was the stone and kingdom was rejected by the reformers as the papacy was identified as the antichrist of prophecy. The Historicist method of interpretation was firmly in place outlining the four kingdoms of the image, and identifying the little horn of Daniel 7 as the papacy. They viewed the stone of Daniel 2, as Christ, but they were divided as to whether it referred to Christ's first coming when He established the "spiritual kingdom" or His second coming in a catastrophic "smashing" . There was no real consensus. Some looked to the rabbis for ideas -- the Jews of course still waiting for the Messiah to come and set up His kingdom in Jerusalem. 4. POST REFORMATIONThe counter Reformation brought in Preterit interpretation -- Preterism holds to the stone referring to Christ establishing the spiritual kingdom at His first coming. The kingdom is the dominion of Christ over earth, which he obtained at his ascension in heaven. His second coming was spiritual (intangible/invisible) in the destruction of Jerusalem. The church is the "new Jerusalem" and becomes the earthly seat of Christ's kingdom and throne. The counter Reformation also brought in the Futurist interpretation, which originally held that the stone was the spiritual kingdom which would one day fill the earth, this was adapted by Dispensationalists -- which hold to the stone being the Messianic kingdom (millennium reign of Christ) in Palestine (Jerusalem). This is not an exhaustive study but a generalized overview of the tends in Christian History. When William Miller came on the scene, the concept of the world getting better, and moving ahead to an earthly utopia type kingdom was very strong within Christian denominations. Millers view of the second coming as "the end of the world" and meeting Christ in the air, was a radical departure from the general understanding of Daniel Two. After the great disappointment, many of the Millerites rejected Miller's teachings, and returned to their churches and former beliefs. Pioneer Seventh-day Adventists, however, could not turn their backs on what they had found to be truth, and went to their Bibles to dig for understanding and wisdom. They discovered the sanctuary truths and the answer to the 2300 days. They continued to refute any concept of a utopic type of kingdom on this earth prior to 1000 years in heaven, and continued to look to the second coming of Christ as "the end of the world" when they would be caught up into air to be with Christ in heaven for 1000 years. Studies of a utopic, present world, type of kingdom, is not "new light" at all, it is the basic belief of Catholicism that has also taken over the protestant churches. Actually the Protestant Churches didn't shake off the earthly kingdom idea during the reformation. They never grasped that a literal kingdom and religion were never again to be merged in this world of intolerance. Thus we see in history, reformers persecuting other reforming groups, trying to establish "kingdom" like territories where everyone worshipped according to the original reformers beliefs. The Puritans escaped from the English Anglicans who were persecuting them. Yet, once in America the Puritans persecuted the Quakers and other groups believing different. It wasn't until America formed it's constitution that people could actually worship freely. We are heading for another "kingdom" of intolerance, and it will bring in the time of trouble as never before seen in earth's history. I gave the history of the understanding of Daniel 2 through out the Christian era. The interesting point is how the Catholic Church appropriated the meaning of the stone and the kingdom to itself. Especially through the writings of Augustine and his book The City of God, the concept of the stone being the church and the kingdom, being the church ruling over the nations. We need to get back to the seeing the STONE or rock as Christ. He is the ROCK OF AGES 2 Samuel 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?
2 Samuael 22:47 The LORD lives; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation.
Psalm 94:22 But the LORD is my defence; and my God is the rock of my refuge.
Psalm 95:1 O come, let us sing unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation. Jesus is the FOUNDATION stone Acts 4:10 by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth,... 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Matt. 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
Solemnly and regretfully Christ asked, "Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner; this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder." ...The doom foretold came upon the Jewish nation. Their own fierce passions, uncontrolled, wrought their ruin. In their blind rage they destroyed one another.{COL 295} ^ And so it will be in the very end -- Christ calls upon us to lay our sins upon Him, the Sin-Bearer. . . . But if we refuse to let them go, taking the responsibility ourselves, we will be lost. We may fall upon Christ, the living stone, and be broken, but if that Stone falls upon us, it will grind us to powder. FLB 102
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Re: Thy Kingdom Come
[Re: dedication]
#171569
01/29/15 06:05 AM
01/29/15 06:05 AM
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Ded- She quotes -- It should be remembered that the promises and threatenings of God are alike conditional. {1SM 67.8}
Then asks --"So are you saying the statement by EGW is not true?"
Of course what she said is true. But we must understand it in context. For instance, we must agree with the above in the context of what was made clear by the following:
The story of Israel's call, of their successes and failures, of their restoration to divine favor, of their rejection of the Master of the vineyard, and of the carrying out of the plan of the ages by a goodly remnant to whom are to be fulfilled all the covenant promises--this has been the theme of God's messengers to His church throughout the centuries that have passed. And today God's message to His church--to those who are occupying His vineyard as faithful husbandmen--is none other than that spoken through the prophet of old:
"Sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine. I the Lord do keep it; I will water it every moment: lest any hurt it, I will keep it night and day." Isaiah 27:2, 3. (Prophets and Kings, p.22)
And this --
Never has the Lord been without true representatives on this earth who have made His interests their own. These witnesses for God are numbered among the spiritual Israel, and to them will be fulfilled all the covenant promises made by Jehovah to His ancient people.
Clear straight words from SOP. "ALL" does not mean "some". And one of the prime covenant promises was the latter day Kingdom in Israel.
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Re: Thy Kingdom Come
[Re: Godsloveandlaw]
#171580
01/30/15 01:36 AM
01/30/15 01:36 AM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,705
Canada
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But you don't think those covenant promises will be fulfilled in the NEW Jerusalem -- and the New Earth. Gal. 4:25 For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. Which inheritance do we want? Which covenant? The old Jerusalem one that leads to bondage OR The heavenly Jerusalem? "Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee." Isaiah 60:1. Christ is coming with power and great glory. He is coming with His own glory and with the glory of the Father. And the holy angels will attend Him on His way. While all the world is plunged in darkness, there will be light in every dwelling of the saints. They will catch the first light of His second appearing. The unsullied light will shine from His splendor, and Christ the Redeemer will be admired by all who have served Him. While the wicked flee, Christ's followers will rejoice in His presence. {PK 720.2} Then it is that the redeemed from among men will receive their promised inheritance. Thus God's purpose for Israel will meet with literal fulfillment. That which God purposes, man is powerless to disannul. Even amid the working of evil, God's purposes have been moving steadily forward to their accomplishment. It was thus with the house of Israel throughout the history of the divided monarchy; it is thus with spiritual Israel today. {PK 720.3} The seer of Patmos, looking down through the ages to the time of this restoration of Israel in the earth made new, testified: {PK 720.4} "I beheld, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. {PK 720.5}
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Re: Thy Kingdom Come
[Re: Godsloveandlaw]
#171584
01/30/15 02:37 AM
01/30/15 02:37 AM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
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Please note in the quote above (PK 720
1. This is speaking of the second coming. 2. Then the redeemed receive the promised inheritance 3. This restoration of Israel takes place in the earth made new. 4. Thus God's purpose for Israel will meet with LITERAL fulfillment.
Don't miss this point -- the literal fulfilment occurs when the redeemed receive the promised inheritance in the earth made new, after the second coming.
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Re: Thy Kingdom Come
[Re: dedication]
#171588
01/30/15 03:30 AM
01/30/15 03:30 AM
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Ded- But you don't think those covenant promises will be fulfilled in the NEW Jerusalem -- and the New Earth.
Absolutely not. For there are tremendous amount of Scripture that backs up this "pre-mil" kingdom. Keep in mind as we learn more about this, this "kingdom " is not a government kingdom as we know it today, it's a "theocracy". In other words the world at this time won't be submitted wholly to this kingdom as Satan will advance his kingdom at the same time. Hence the --"Great Controversy" shall play out before the world. Nevertheless, God , in His mercy shall give the people a most striking example of His power , and then the world shall have no more excuse.
Here are just a few references to back it up.
1) Isaiah 2:2-4 2) Isaiah 11:1-12 3) Isaiah 17:4-8 4) Isaiah 28:14-19 5) Isaiah 30:19-22 6) Isaiah 31:6-9 7) Isaiah 34:8-10
much more from Isaiah. You'll notice that the time when this kingdom in "Zion" is to be established there are -- Gentiles and "old men". The New earth shall not have them.
Further the greater point is that the Lord will establish a final proof before the world that His kingdom is a 'real thing". He made promises to His ancient people and He will keep them. The "Israel of today" is those who keep His Commandments and thus can be found in His SDA church.
There is much more in Jeremiah, Hosea, Joel, Zechariah, etc.
Last edited by Godsloveandlaw; 01/30/15 03:38 AM.
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Re: Thy Kingdom Come
[Re: Godsloveandlaw]
#171595
01/30/15 02:25 PM
01/30/15 02:25 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
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Ded- She quotes -- It should be remembered that the promises and threatenings of God are alike conditional. {1SM 67.8}
Then asks --"So are you saying the statement by EGW is not true?"
Of course what she said is true. But we must understand it in context. For instance, we must agree with the above in the context of what was made clear by the following:
The story of Israel's call, of their successes and failures, of their restoration to divine favor, of their rejection of the Master of the vineyard, and of the carrying out of the plan of the ages by a goodly remnant to whom are to be fulfilled all the covenant promises--this has been the theme of God's messengers to His church throughout the centuries that have passed. And today God's message to His church--to those who are occupying His vineyard as faithful husbandmen--is none other than that spoken through the prophet of old:
"Sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine. I the Lord do keep it; I will water it every moment: lest any hurt it, I will keep it night and day." Isaiah 27:2, 3. (Prophets and Kings, p.22)
And this --
Never has the Lord been without true representatives on this earth who have made His interests their own. These witnesses for God are numbered among the spiritual Israel, and to them will be fulfilled all the covenant promises made by Jehovah to His ancient people.
Clear straight words from SOP. "ALL" does not mean "some". And one of the prime covenant promises was the latter day Kingdom in Israel.
That didn't really make sense. Either the promises and threatenings of God are alike conditional or they are not. And your "in context" didn't seem to be in context. Unless you are suggesting truth is conditional....
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