The scriptures are the place I go see if my thinking on a spiritual subject is correct. I judge my ideas by scripture as to whether they are correct or not, not the other way around.

Hi Elle,

The answers to your questions, at least as well as I understand them for some of them leave me a little hazy as to exactly what you mean.

1. I wrote that about the Bible. That was the context of what I was talking about. I know you don't accept Ellen White so it didn't even enter my head to include Ellen White in that question.

2.This one I am hazy on as to what you are really asking. The scriptures are God's greatest revelation to us. Whether or not we immediately grasp all that God is trying to say to us in scripture is irrelevant to me as the scriptures are still God's revelation of Himself and how He interacts with humanity whether I grasp the lesson being taught in some particular passage or not. I guess I'm trying to say revelation does not depend on my understanding it to be revelation.

The scriptures are the place I go see if my thinking on a spiritual subject is correct. I judge my ideas by scripture as to whether they are correct or not, not the other way around.

3. I'm even hazier on this question. Yes, the Torah is/was prophetic in nature. The entire Bible is. But some parts of it are clearly not prophetic in nature. The book of Proverbs has little in it that is prophetic, but rather is very instructive about human nature. Other parts of the OT are instructive too, rather than prophetic. Same with some of the writings of Paul. His commentary on carnal nature vs the fruit of the Spirit is not prophetic in nature but is educational so that we can understand what and who God really wants us to be. I think it's a mistake to try to spiritualize away that which is instructional by trying to make it prophetic in some way.

4. I'm even hazier on my understanding of this question. What was Jesus supposed to fulfill in that specific instance? The entire chapter has things that are prophetic in nature in that they are symbolic of Christ coming as the Messiah, but to make everything somehow prophetic when they were actually pointing back in time to God bringing Israel out of Egypt just seems like a mistake to me. The overall instruction about the Israelites on how they came out of Egypt into Canaan is prophetic in one sense. It is symbolic of us coming out the world and entering the heavenly Canaan, but I can't see how each tiny part of it is specifically prophetic.

Furthermore, some prophetic parts of the Torah has a single specific fulfillment as they pointed to Christ, and when He came He fulfilled those prophecies. How could they have multiple prophetic meanings as there will never be another Messiah? There will never be another Messiah. To think that might be so is to me an insult to Christ's life and death and that His sacrifice is somehow an incomplete sacrifice for sin. This area is where your questions get really confusing to me as to what you are really trying to get at. It seems to me that you are trying to force meanings into things that were never meant to be there.

5. The moral law is what we will be judged by. Jesus made that plain enough multiple times. I see nothing at all in scripture that says I will be judged on whether or not I sacrifice a lamb as an offering for a sin I have committed or I wear a piece of clothing made out of multiple types of thread. Do you? And do you think that is something that is required of us? When you start trying to make everything to have multiple meanings the areas you can get into can get really strange. Yes, some prophecies have dual fulfillments but that doesn't mean they all do, and some instruction has more than one purpose, but that doesn't mean all instruction from God has more than one purpose.

The last question under 5 simply leaves me puzzled. I have no idea as to what you are referring to.

But...
You also have a certain understanding of Scripture.
Therefore, to judge [your] ideas by scripture is really to judge your ideas by your ideas of scripture, which is actually a circular argument.

The best we can hope for, IMO, is to diligently strive to identify our own biases, which involves actively researching both sides of a viewpoint, and clearly understanding the dynamics of the various views. This helps to identify the strengths and weaknesses of ones position.

But...
You also have a certain understanding of Scripture.
Therefore, to judge [your] ideas by scripture is really to judge your ideas by your ideas of scripture, which is actually a circular argument.

The best we can hope for, IMO, is to diligently strive to identify our own biases, which involves actively researching both sides of a viewpoint, and clearly understanding the dynamics of the various views. This helps to identify the strengths and weaknesses of ones position.

Not that Nadi had said this or believe in this; but I want to make clear that I still wouldn't consider this level of intellectual process as "revelation".

We have the promise of Jesus that contradicts your statement that is based upon Greek thinking.

I do not find that applying principles of pagan thinking to God's word to be a reasonable approach to studying God's word. They are at opposite ends of the spectrum of spiritual knowledge. What it seems to me that you are suggesting is that all other sources are equal in validity and truth to the Bible, and that is simply not true.

First let me say that I really appreciate your honesty with me. You are straight out, up front, and direct. You cannot know how much I appreciate that.

Since you have also been born and raised in the Western world it stands to reason that your thinking is as much "Greek" as mine. This is somewhat analogous to the pot calling the kettle black. (Yes, this is an assumption on my part, but I'm guessing I'm not far wrong.)

I have asked several questions in previous posts to try to understand your point of view. Up to now you have studiously avoided answering them, and resisted offering your view of "revelation." Yet now I am charged with "suggesting... that all other sources are equal in validity and truth to the Bible, and that is simply not true." This I see as unfair, since I have offered no viewpoint of any kind, but only asked for clarity on yours.


I also would appreciate "honesty...straight out, up front, and direct."

First off I have been honest, straight out, up front, and direct with you. I have answered every question of yours exactly as I understood it.

What did I not answer about revelation, to your satisfaction? I answered the question as I understood it within the context of what was being talked about.

Learning by revelation offers its own set of circumstances. Are you meaning that God speaks directly to the individual? I will say that if God spoke directly to me and said "This is how it is." I would have to go with that, and really, I would have no trouble with that.

But...
(This is where the Rationalism/Scepticism factors in... grin)
I don't see him doing that.

So elaborate a little more on what you intend by "revelation."

Q2 : What constitute a "revelation" to you and how does someone get a "revelation"?

2.This one I am hazy on as to what you are really asking. The scriptures are God's greatest revelation to us. Whether or not we immediately grasp all that God is trying to say to us in scripture is irrelevant to me as the scriptures are still God's revelation of Himself and how He interacts with humanity whether I grasp the lesson being taught in some particular passage or not. I guess I'm trying to say revelation does not depend on my understanding it to be revelation.

The scriptures are the place I go see if my thinking on a spiritual subject is correct. I judge my ideas by scripture as to whether they are correct or not, not the other way around.

If you look at the Bible God teaches us through revelation about Himself and how He would have us live. Creation, redemption, health, cleanliness, etc... are all taught in the Bible, as well as self-discipline, honor, duty, and much more. God taught the Israelites all these things through revelation. Thus He was teaching them to look to Him for all true learning.

Greek thinking is much different. It is based upon debate, like what Paul got into on Mars Hill. In debate, which the Greeks perfected, we look to tear apart ideas and see if they make sense to us, to our understanding of things. It makes our thinking, our ideas, the standard by which we judge all things that come across our paths.

That is much different than learning via revelation in the way God was teaching the Israelites down through the centuries.