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Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1
[Re: Charity]
#183342
04/17/17 11:03 PM
04/17/17 11:03 PM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Folks, let's set the record straight. Mrs. White says we are not to be proclaiming a "definite" time in our message. There are two details about her statements on this subject that are noteworthy:
1) Definite: This allows indefinite times, such as "soon." 2) Message: This means our public message does not focus on the time element.
Does either of the above preclude knowing the day and hour? No. In fact, Ellen White herself tells us that the saints will know the day and the hour before Christ comes. It will be announced, not by us, but by God Himself. It is not, therefore, our proclamation, but His...and it is given after probation has closed. Are there still prophecies based on time remaining? Yes. Are they to be part of our message? No. Can we know of the times personally, through careful study? I believe this is possible for some of the times. Will anyone know of probation's close? Absolutely not. Of all the times which we may or may not know, that one is held in strict secrecy by God. We will never know it.
Therefore, when His Child attempted to proclaim that the time had come already for probation's close, it was clear that he was not understanding things properly. Both Mrs. White and the Bible make clear that this is a time which we will not know. Those who continue to set dates in their message to others live in violation of the counsels of Mrs. White, and can be said to be rejecting her testimonies.
I will give one example of a "definite time" time prophecy which is not part of our message, and an example of an "indefinite time" time prophecy which might well be part of it.
Definite time: Jesus will stand upon the Mount of Olives, making it a plain, and the wicked dead will be raised at the end of the 1000 years in Heaven.
Indefinite time: Jesus will come at the end of about 6000 years when this world has filled its week of iniquity, with the millennial Sabbath to be celebrated in Heaven.
The latter time is indefinite because no one knows for sure when the 6000 began, and therefore, when it will end--but to understand that God is a God of time and of order and precision is to know that He has a timeline which He will follow, and His promise to come again is sure.
The "definite" time prophecy will only be so when Jesus comes and we know of a certainty its starting point. Obviously, it cannot be proclaimed with our message in any way now that would help people prepare for Jesus' soon coming.
Those who say we will not know the day and hour of Jesus' coming are rejecting the testimonies of God given in both the Bible and the writings of Mrs. White. The Bible says "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness" (1 Thessalonians 5:4-5). Mrs. White says the day and the hour will be announced for the saints. So only the worldlings will not know it. Those walking in the light will not be ignorant--the day will not come to them as a thief. Our message is to be one of "Get ready!" Get ready, . . . for in such an hour as ye think not (to the ones who are unprepared), the Son of Man cometh.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#183343
04/17/17 11:56 PM
04/17/17 11:56 PM
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SDA Active Member 2022
Senior Member
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 545
Central Alberta
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The Bible says "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness" (1 Thessalonians 5:4-5). Mrs. White says the day and the hour will be announced for the saints. So only the worldlings will not know it. Those walking in the light will not be ignorant--the day will not come to them as a thief. Our message is to be one of "Get ready!" Get ready, . . . for in such an hour as ye think not (to the ones who are unprepared), the Son of Man cometh. The Bible verse you used here is not in context with the subject at hand and does not denote any specific times regarding the second coming. However, the rest of your comment is correct, and EGW does comment further on the matter: Matthew 24:36 The Day and Hour of Christ's Coming Announced
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Mat_24:36. {Mar 287.1}
The voice of God is heard from heaven, declaring the day and hour of Jesus' coming, and delivering everlasting covenant to His people. Like peals of loudest thunder His words roll through the earth. {Mar 287.2}
He spoke one sentence, and then paused, while the words were rolling through the earth. The Israel of God stood with their eyes fixed upward, listening to the words as they came from the mouth of Jehovah and rolled through the earth like peals of loudest thunder. It was awfully solemn. At the end of every sentence the saints shouted, "Glory! Hallelujah!" {Mar 287.3}
The living saints, 144,000 in number, knew and understood the voice, while the wicked thought it was thunder and an earthquake. {Mar 287.4}
The Israel of God stand listening, with their eyes fixed upward. Their countenances are lighted up with His glory, and shine as did the face of Moses when he came down from Sinai. The wicked cannot look upon them. And when the blessing is pronounced on those who have honored God by keeping His Sabbath holy, there is a mighty shout of victory. {Mar 287.5}
Then commenced the jubilee, when the land should rest. {Mar 287.6}
A glorious light shone upon them [the saints]. How beautiful they then looked! All marks of care and weariness were gone, and health and beauty were seen in every countenance. Their enemies, the heathen around them, fell like dead men; they could not endure the light that shone upon the delivered, holy ones. This light and glory remained upon them, until Jesus was seen in the clouds of heaven. {Mar 287.7}
And I saw a flaming cloud come where Jesus stood. Then Jesus . . . took His place on the cloud which carried Him to the East, where it first appeared to the saints on earth--a small black cloud which was the sign of the Son of man. While the cloud was passing from the Holiest to the East, which took a number of days, the synagogue of Satan worshipped at the saints' feet. {Mar 287.8}
Matthew 24:36 The Day And Hour Of Christ’s Coming Announced
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Mat_24:36. {OFC 335.3}
The voice of God is heard from heaven, declaring the day and hour of Jesus’ coming, and delivering everlasting covenant to His people. Like peals of loudest thunder His words roll through the earth. {OFC 335.4}
He spoke one sentence, and then paused, while the words were rolling through the earth. The Israel of God stood with their eyes fixed upward, listening to the words as they came from the mouth of Jehovah and rolled through the earth like peals of loudest thunder. It was awfully solemn. At the end of every sentence the saints shouted, “Glory! Hallelujah!” {OFC 335.5}
The living saints, 144,000 in number, knew and understood the voice, while the wicked thought it was thunder and an earthquake. {OFC 335.6}
The Israel of God stand listening, with their eyes fixed upward. Their countenances are lighted up with His glory, and shine as did the face of Moses when he came down from Sinai. The wicked cannot look upon them. And when the blessing is pronounced on those who have honored God by keeping His Sabbath holy, there is a mighty shout of victory. {OFC 335.7}
Then commenced the jubilee, when the land should rest. {OFC 335.8}
A glorious light shone upon them [the saints]. How beautiful they then looked! All marks of care and weariness were gone, and health and beauty were seen in every countenance. Their enemies, the heathen around them, fell like dead men; they could not endure the light that shone upon the delivered, holy ones. This light and glory remained upon them, until Jesus was seen in the clouds of heaven. {OFC 335.9}
And I saw a flaming cloud come where Jesus stood. Then Jesus . . .took His place on the cloud which carried Him to the East, where it first appeared to the saints on earth-a small black cloud which was the sign of the Son of man. While the cloud was passing from the Holiest to the East, which took a number of days, the synagogue of Satan worshipped at the saint’s feet. {OFC 335.10}
As long as we do not get caught up in trying to calculate such time ourselves, our message will be Biblical, and correct.
Last edited by The Wanderer; 04/18/17 12:05 AM. Reason: formatting
"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance." "There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8) https://www.lightintheclouds.net/wordSincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit - The Wanderer
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Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1
[Re: kland]
#183344
04/18/17 02:03 AM
04/18/17 02:03 AM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,705
Canada
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Also, let's not confuse the proclamation of the 2300 prophecy which ended in 1844 in the same category as what's going on now after 1844. That's what she was referring to when she wrote "The world placed all time-proclamation on the same level and called it a delusion, fanaticism and heresy." There were time prophecies leading us to the judgment hour that began in 1844. There are no more time lines between 1844 and the second coming.
I disagree with how His Child is using things and what he's trying to make things say, and I agree for the most part of what you are saying, but I'm not sure of your last sentence there. Did Ellen White say anything like that which does not relate to the 2300 prophecy? To answer your question: "Ever since 1844 I have borne my testimony that we were now in a period of time in which we are to take heed to ourselves lest our hearts be overcharged with surfeiting and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon us unawares.Our position has been one of waiting and watching, with no time-proclamation to intervene between the close of the prophetic periods in 1844 and the time of our Lord's coming.--10MR 270 (1888). {LDE 36.1}
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Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#183354
04/18/17 01:31 PM
04/18/17 01:31 PM
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SDA Active Member 2018
Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
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Folks, let's set the record straight. Mrs. White says we are not to be proclaiming a "definite" time in our message. There are two details about her statements on this subject that are noteworthy:
1) Definite: This allows indefinite times, such as "soon." 2) Message: This means our public message does not focus on the time element.
Does either of the above preclude knowing the day and hour? No. In fact, Ellen White herself tells us that the saints will know the day and the hour before Christ comes. It will be announced, not by us, but by God Himself. It is not, therefore, our proclamation, but His...and it is given after probation has closed. Are there still prophecies based on time remaining? Yes. Are they to be part of our message? No. Can we know of the times personally, through careful study? I believe this is possible for some of the times. Will anyone know of probation's close? Absolutely not. Of all the times which we may or may not know, that one is held in strict secrecy by God. We will never know it.
Therefore, when His Child attempted to proclaim that the time had come already for probation's close, it was clear that he was not understanding things properly. Both Mrs. White and the Bible make clear that this is a time which we will not know. Those who continue to set dates in their message to others live in violation of the counsels of Mrs. White, and can be said to be rejecting her testimonies.
I will give one example of a "definite time" time prophecy which is not part of our message, and an example of an "indefinite time" time prophecy which might well be part of it.
Definite time: Jesus will stand upon the Mount of Olives, making it a plain, and the wicked dead will be raised at the end of the 1000 years in Heaven.
Indefinite time: Jesus will come at the end of about 6000 years when this world has filled its week of iniquity, with the millennial Sabbath to be celebrated in Heaven.
The latter time is indefinite because no one knows for sure when the 6000 began, and therefore, when it will end--but to understand that God is a God of time and of order and precision is to know that He has a timeline which He will follow, and His promise to come again is sure.
The "definite" time prophecy will only be so when Jesus comes and we know of a certainty its starting point. Obviously, it cannot be proclaimed with our message in any way now that would help people prepare for Jesus' soon coming.
Those who say we will not know the day and hour of Jesus' coming are rejecting the testimonies of God given in both the Bible and the writings of Mrs. White. The Bible says "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness" (1 Thessalonians 5:4-5). Mrs. White says the day and the hour will be announced for the saints. So only the worldlings will not know it. Those walking in the light will not be ignorant--the day will not come to them as a thief. Our message is to be one of "Get ready!" Get ready, . . . for in such an hour as ye think not (to the ones who are unprepared), the Son of Man cometh. Some excellent points Green. Personally, I feel safer without a definite time. I can never get it wrong as long as I'm ready each and every day.
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Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1
[Re: dedication]
#183365
04/19/17 08:57 PM
04/19/17 08:57 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
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To answer your question:
"Ever since 1844 I have borne my testimony that we were now in a period of time in which we are to take heed to ourselves lest our hearts be overcharged with surfeiting and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon us unawares.Our position has been one of waiting and watching, with no time-proclamation to intervene between the close of the prophetic periods in 1844 and the time of our Lord's coming.--10MR 270 (1888). {LDE 36.1}
Ok, that seems pretty clear and straightforward! I just wanted to make sure it wasn't just your words saying that. However, based on the context, I'm not sure it disallows her to exclude time frames after probation closes.
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Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1
[Re: dedication]
#183377
04/20/17 11:48 PM
04/20/17 11:48 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
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The testimonies not only condemn definite actual dates in time settings, they also warn against approximate time predictions like we've been hearing here -- like; Jesus will come within one or two or three years.
They also warn against setting time periods for probation to close and the latter rain to fall. It would be time wasted to go through each of your Spirit of Prophecy quotes and point out that they are in or out of context. But it is obvious that I am being misunderstood. 1) Prophetic time giving the day and hour of Christ's Coming ended in 1844. 2) Literal time prophecy continues from 1844 until Christ Comes. 3) When the prophecy in Daniel 7 is used to interpret itself the meaning is not the same as when Heaven's interpretation is used to interpret it. 4) When Heaven's interpretation of the prophecy in Daniel 7 is used to interpret it, the kings from the earth are Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II, and Obama. That is where the prophecy ends. 5) The Ram in Daniel 8 has 2 horns. The first is Bush I and the second is Bush II who came up last. And the she/he goat is Bill and Hilary Clinton. The broken horn is Bill Clinton who trampled Bush I and Hilary trampled Bush II. The notable one is Colon Powell from which Bush II and Barack Obama were propelled to be President. Obama is the little horn that magnifies himself. 6) Since Obama has left office and Trump is now president, Trump has to fulfill the self-magnification aspect of prophecy (Daniel 8) in the time allotted to Obama or Obama has to return to office before 19 January 2018. As I studied this I went with the Ancient Babylonian calendar (New Year's Day 28 March 2017) It didn't happen. So I'm looking to 19 January 2018. But as I think about it. America counts the year from 1 January and Mr Obama left office 20 days into the New Year. So if 1 January is the correct day for the the start of the year in this prophecy, one of 2 things has to happen. Christ will come before 31 December 2018 or President Obama will be back in office by that date rather than 19 January 2018 as i had earlier thought. 7) Time is not the big factor here. But as I explain my studies, time is what you get hung up on. The Big factor is Daniel 7 & 8 clearly identify President Obama. So to fail to see that we are in the final sealing time and to fail to give the third angel's message the right sound at this time is to fail to watch the prophecies. That is where I stand until more light comes. If the evidence from Revelation 13, 16, 17, and 18 is viewed in its proper context, the case is even stronger. This is the shaking time when Bible students will be divided from others who do not study as they ought. The testimonies tell us that some things will have a final or complete fulfillment, but not everyone will understand or accept the Present Truth when it is upon us.
"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
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Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1
[Re: Charity]
#183380
04/21/17 02:41 AM
04/21/17 02:41 AM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,705
Canada
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Prophetic Time is always fulfilled in literal time. Prophetic time doesn't become some mythical unreality just because it was originally stated in encrypted language. You can't divorce prophetic time from literal time without doing serious damage to the prophetic foundation of truth. All the prophetic time lines were fulfilled in literal time, with calendar dates.
If you receive an encrypted message do you look for the key to decipher the message? And once the message is made plain, do you then push it away and insist that the way it was written is the actual message?
Of course not -- unless one wants a false message. Prophetic time tells us the time in which certain things will take place, including their endpoint.
There is no prophetic time between 1844 and the deliverance of God's saints when Christ Himself announces His coming. To call it a different name and thus excuse the re-interpretation of prophetic time periods, is not something we should be doing.
Christ could have come ere this. EGW fully believed He would come in her lifetime. We are to watch and pray, being ready at all times.
The third angel's message is not about who will be president at a certain date. Christ's coming is NOT based on who is president.
The signs of Christ's soon coming are all around -- Those signs only get dimmed with all this speculation and reinterpreting the prophecies. Truth is even lost sight of in the muddle of insisting certain time periods or certain presidents must be in office for Christ to come. Yes -- I thoroughly realize that all this "speculation" will encourage the shaking -- for it shakes peoples' faith in the sure word of prophecy that our faith was based upon, and will lead people into the wrong camp.
Who is president has nothing to do with salvation or predicting the last days.
The whole thing of trying to mark out the time will, as EGW warns, cause people to eventually place the end too far in the future and it will over take them with overwhelming surprise.
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Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1
[Re: Charity]
#183382
04/21/17 04:06 AM
04/21/17 04:06 AM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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TIME-SETTING LEADS TO UNBELIEF
Because the times repeatedly set have passed, the world is in a more decided state of unbelief than before in regard to the near advent of Christ. They look upon the failures of the time-setters with disgust, and because men have been so deceived, they turn from the truth substantiated by the Word of God that the end of all things is at hand.--4T 307 (1879). {LDE 34.3}
I understand that Brother [E. P.] Daniels has, as it were, set time, stating that the Lord will come within five years. Now I hope the impression will not go abroad that we are time-setters. Let no such remarks be made. They do no good. Seek not to obtain a revival upon any such grounds, but let due caution be used in every word uttered, that fanatical ones will not seize anything they can get to create an excitement and the Spirit of the Lord be grieved. {LDE 34.4}
We want not to move the people's passions to get up a stir, where feelings are moved and principle does not control. I feel that we need to be guarded on every side, because Satan is at work to do his uttermost to insinuate his arts and devices that shall be a power to do harm. Anything that will make a stir, create an excitement on a wrong basis, is to be dreaded, for the reaction will surely come.--Letter 34, 1887. {LDE 35.1}
There will always be false and fanatical movements made by persons in the church who claim to be led of God--those who will run before they are sent and will give day and date for the occurrence of unfulfilled prophecy. The enemy is pleased to have them do this, for their successive failures and leading into false lines cause confusion and unbelief.--2SM 84 (1897). {LDE 35.2}
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1
[Re: APL]
#183385
04/21/17 05:11 AM
04/21/17 05:11 AM
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SDA Active Member 2022
Senior Member
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 545
Central Alberta
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Nicely said APL Do you know of any Scripture which backs this up?
"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance." "There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8) https://www.lightintheclouds.net/wordSincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit - The Wanderer
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Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1
[Re: His child]
#183386
04/21/17 05:21 AM
04/21/17 05:21 AM
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SDA Active Member 2022
Senior Member
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 545
Central Alberta
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This is the shaking time when Bible students will be divided from others who do not study as they ought.
The testimonies tell us that some things will have a final or complete fulfillment, but not everyone will understand or accept the Present Truth when it is upon us. These are adhominem arguments of personally rationalized doctrines. Adhominem indicates "Appealing to personal considerations (rather than to fact or reason)," while "rationalize" portrays one who "Defends, explains, clears away, or make excuses for by reasoning," yet not usually based on facts, or, the full story. No One Knows That Day and HourMat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.There simply is no way to change the meaning of this and other clear Bible texts which tell us the opposite of your many partial quotes strung together to appear as facts, which are not true.
"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance." "There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8) https://www.lightintheclouds.net/wordSincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit - The Wanderer
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