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Re: Daniel 9 and the 144,000
[Re: His child]
#183298
04/14/17 11:58 PM
04/14/17 11:58 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
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The ending for the time allotted for the Judgment of the dead and the living is not the end of probation as it may appear on the surface. It is a time to bring every cast (I think you mean "case"?) current before the throne of God. By HC. Can you explain how this works. For example if the judgment of the living is over who can be saved except those who are being sealed? And they have already been judged so why would we attempt to bring people to Christ if only those who are already saved are being sealed? Am I misunderstanding?
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Re: Daniel 9 and the 144,000
[Re: Charity]
#183300
04/15/17 01:30 PM
04/15/17 01:30 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
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I have to say HC, I think you may be closer to the truth than many of us regarding Ellen White's position on the angel's declaration that time would be no longer. You say it applies specifically to the day and hour of Christ's return rather than being a blanket prohibition of prophetic periods after 1844. That's a point worth considering.
Another of her statements suggests that her meaning is that time prophecy will never be a testing truth again. In the context of the angel's declaration ending time she says it shows that the people will never be tested on time again as they were in 1844.
Taken together, these two ideas are complementary, the one helping to interpret the other.
This is a good lesson for us. If you lived in America in 1844, you didn't need to have a completely correct understanding of the meaning of Daniel 8:14 for it to be a testing, present truth. God was speaking through Miller to America. Miller wasn't completely right but his message, the kingdom is at hand in the year 1844, was still testing truth.
That is why being a scoffer is often fatal. Those who scoffed at Miller felt they were justified when his prediction proved false as they thought. Small consolation for the spiritual death that resulted from their unbelief.
Last edited by Mark Shipowick; 04/15/17 01:34 PM.
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Re: Daniel 9 and the 144,000
[Re: His child]
#183304
04/16/17 11:32 AM
04/16/17 11:32 AM
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SDA Active Member 2018
Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
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But HC, March 27 to April 1 didn't work out the way you thought! Have you accounted for that in these conclusions that you have drawn?
yes There are those who study the Bible (and make mistakes from time to time). There are those who constructively interact with them and contribute to the study and increase knowledge. There are those who are the accusers of the brethren. And there are a lot of people all along the spectrum between encourager and accuser who do not know where they are in Bible prophecy. Bible prophecy study is a learning experience. For we know in part and when that which is perfect is come, we know more. My original understanding was that if President Obama left office on 20 January 2017, that Christ would have to come by 19 January 2018. Or Obama would have to return to office before 20 January 2018. More study led me to go with 28 March date as the Babylonian New Year's Day. Someone told me on this forum that 28 March could not be Babylon's New Year's Day. 28 March was Nisan 1 (New Year's Day on the Hebrew calendar this year) But if some want to toss the baby out with the wash water... But I believe that my understanding is closer than some folks think and when more pieces of the puzzle are understood, the blessing will be self evident. I'll admit that I've mistakes in my understanding of things at times. But, I learn from those mistakes and adjust my thinking to the new information. It doesn't seem that is happening. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.
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Re: Daniel 9 and the 144,000
[Re: Alchemy]
#183311
04/17/17 04:08 AM
04/17/17 04:08 AM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,705
Canada
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I'll admit that I've mistakes in my understanding of things at times. But, I learn from those mistakes and adjust my thinking to the new information.
It doesn't seem that is happening. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.
I've been reading HC's (Henry's) posts for approximately twenty years now. He will only admit to making a "little" mistake, and that he now has new information to show a new approximate time period. It's happened many times now. It started back when John Paul II was the pope and Bill Clinton was the president. It would be interesting to compile all the "present truth" predictions made over those years that just didn't happen. It's like building sand castles and urging everyone to seek refuge in those sand castles or drown, but every time a wave comes and washes their sand castle away, instead of realizing this speculation its self is the mistake, and it is NOT the third angel's message, they just go to work to build a new one ---it's an addiction this constant speculative predicting.
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Re: Daniel 9 and the 144,000
[Re: Charity]
#183314
04/17/17 04:13 AM
04/17/17 04:13 AM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,705
Canada
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You say it applies specifically to the day and hour of Christ's return rather than being a blanket prohibition of prophetic periods after 1844. That's a point worth considering.
The testimonies not only condemn setting a specific day for Christ's return, they warn us not to even give an approximate time == like in one or two or five years. See the quotes in this post.
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Re: Daniel 9 and the 144,000
[Re: Charity]
#183315
04/17/17 04:35 AM
04/17/17 04:35 AM
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SDA Active Member 2022
Senior Member
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 545
Central Alberta
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That is why being a scoffer is often fatal. Those who scoffed at Miller felt they were justified when his prediction proved false as they thought. Small consolation for the spiritual death that resulted from their unbelief. But Mr Miller was so wrong in certain of his "predictions," and doctrine; and it does no good in advancing Bible truth to scoff at scoffers of his "message." While Miller did evince some truths, important truths; he also couched them in cherished error and theories: "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." (Mat 24:36)
"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32) It is a wrong, a very wrong use of the testimonies, when they are used to discount the very plain declarations of scripture, which need NO "interpretation" that would change the meaning thereof to something that Jesus has never said. God Gives No Authority To Set A Time For Christ’s ReturnBut about that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Mat_24:36, NRSV. {CTr 343.1}
Your views have found favor with some,but it is because these persons have not discernment to see the true bearing of the arguments you present.
They have had but a limited experience in the work of God for this time, and they do not see where your views would lead them. They are ready to assent to your statements;they see nothing in them but that which is correct. But they are misled because you have woven together much Scripture in constructing your theory; your arguments appear conclusive to them. {CTr 343.2}
Not so, however, with those who have an experimental knowledge of the truth that applies in the last period of this earth’s history. While they see that you hold some precious truth, they see also that you have misapplied Scripture, placing it in a framework of error, where it does not belong, and making it give force to that which is not present truth. The light God has given me is that the Scriptures you have woven together you yourself do not fully understand.{CTr 343.3}
I have had to speak plainly in regard to those who were then leading away from right paths. With pen and voice I have borne the message, “Go not ye after them.” The hardest task I ever had to do in this line was in dealing with one who, I knew, wanted to follow the Lord. For some time he had thought he was obtaining new light.
He was very ill, and must soon die.Those to whom he presented his views listened to him eagerly, and some thought him inspired. He had a chart made and reasoned from the Scriptures to show that the Lord would come at a certain date, in 1894 I think. To many his reasoning seemed to be without a flaw. They told of his powerful exhortations in his sickroom. Most wonderful views passed before him. But what was the source of his inspiration? It was the morphine given him to relieve his pain.{CTr 343.4}
No one has a true message fixing the time when Christ is to come or not to come. Be assured that God gives no one authority to say that Christ delays His coming five years, ten years, or twenty years. “Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.”{CTr 343.5}
All who are laborers together with God will contend most earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints. They will not be turned from the present message, which is already lightening the earth with its glory. Nothing is worth contending for but the glory of God. The only rock that will stand is the Rock of Ages. The truth as it is in Jesus is the refuge in these days of error.-Letter 32, 1896. {CTr 343.6}
Last edited by The Wanderer; 04/17/17 04:42 AM.
"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance." "There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8) https://www.lightintheclouds.net/wordSincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit - The Wanderer
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Re: Daniel 9 and the 144,000
[Re: dedication]
#183318
04/17/17 07:30 AM
04/17/17 07:30 AM
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SDA Active Member 2018
Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
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I'll admit that I've mistakes in my understanding of things at times. But, I learn from those mistakes and adjust my thinking to the new information.
It doesn't seem that is happening. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.
I've been reading HC's (Henry's) posts for approximately twenty years now. He will only admit to making a "little" mistake, and that he now has new information to show a new approximate time period. It's happened many times now. It started back when John Paul II was the pope and Bill Clinton was the president. It would be interesting to compile all the "present truth" predictions made over those years that just didn't happen. It's like building sand castles and urging everyone to seek refuge in those sand castles or drown, but every time a wave comes and washes their sand castle away, instead of realizing this speculation its self is the mistake, and it is NOT the third angel's message, they just go to work to build a new one ---it's an addiction this constant speculative predicting. I appreciate the response dedication. I've only been familiar with HC's thinking for a few months here and in clubadventist. I am really sorry to see people struggling over points that aren't even relevant! I will be praying for all those here with those type of struggles.
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Re: Daniel 9 and the 144,000
[Re: Charity]
#183322
04/17/17 08:16 AM
04/17/17 08:16 AM
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SDA Active Member 2020
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
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The ending for the time allotted for the Judgment of the dead and the living is not the end of probation as it may appear on the surface. It is a time to bring every cast (I think you mean "case"?) current before the throne of God. By HC. Can you explain how this works. For example if the judgment of the living is over who can be saved except those who are being sealed? And they have already been judged so why would we attempt to bring people to Christ if only those who are already saved are being sealed? Am I misunderstanding? As I currently understand it, the time allotted for the Judgment Hour of the living ended on 14 February 2013. So the case of every living person is current in the courts of Heaven. In other words, God is not beginning the judgment or the reviewing process of my life. He has my name written in the book of life and the Holy Spirit is sealing me. But if I fail to receive the seal or return to my rebellion, then my name is removed from the book of Life. Likewise, if those who are currently in rebellion, hear the the gospel call repent and believe on Jesus, their names will be placed in the book of life. I would compare it to having a store's inventory done in time for taxes. But people are still able to make purchases and returns until Christ says "It is done." At that time the books are closed and all sales are final.
"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
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Re: Daniel 9 and the 144,000
[Re: Charity]
#183323
04/17/17 08:42 AM
04/17/17 08:42 AM
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SDA Active Member 2020
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
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I have to say HC, I think you may be closer to the truth than many of us regarding Ellen White's position on the angel's declaration that time would be no longer. You say it applies specifically to the day and hour of Christ's return rather than being a blanket prohibition of prophetic periods after 1844. That's a point worth considering.
Another of her statements suggests that her meaning is that time prophecy will never be a testing truth again. In the context of the angel's declaration ending time she says it shows that the people will never be tested on time again as they were in 1844.
Taken together, these two ideas are complementary, the one helping to interpret the other.
This is a good lesson for us. If you lived in America in 1844, you didn't need to have a completely correct understanding of the meaning of Daniel 8:14 for it to be a testing, present truth. God was speaking through Miller to America. Miller wasn't completely right but his message, the kingdom is at hand in the year 1844, was still testing truth.
That is why being a scoffer is often fatal. Those who scoffed at Miller felt they were justified when his prediction proved false as they thought. Small consolation for the spiritual death that resulted from their unbelief. Mark, Thank you for your comments. When the angel states "time shall be no longer" (Rev 10:5) the 2300 day prophecy ended as 2300 years at the Great disappointment in 1844. Thus long time with a day being a year ended in the book of Revelation in 1844. Thus after 1844 when time prophecy has its final fulfillment it is literal time. EGW is hard to understand when it comes to her comments on time prophecy because she was working hard to keep the time setters in check and not wanting to make statements on time that could be misunderstood. But when she uses the term "prophetic time" it is clear that she is speaking of the Day and Hour of Christ's Coming. When she says the world views "all time prophecy" as being a lie and then gives her view of prophetic time, she is contrasting her view to that of the world. Thus we cannot correctly understand her position on time prophecy if we read her position as if it is the one that she is condemning. And every time that she speaks of no time prophecy after 1844 THE CONTEXT ALWAYS has a reference to the time of Christ's Coming either directly before the statement or immediately after it. But my brothers and sisters generally take EGW out of context when it comes to her statements about time prophecy.
"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
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Re: Daniel 9 and the 144,000
[Re: The Wanderer]
#183324
04/17/17 09:10 AM
04/17/17 09:10 AM
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SDA Active Member 2020
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
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...
God Gives No Authority To Set A Time For Christ’s Return “Though no man knoweth the day nor the hour of His coming, we are instructed and required to know when it is near. We are further taught that to disregard His warning, and refuse or neglect to know when His Advent is near, will be as fatal for us, as it was for those who lived in the days of Noah not to know when the flood was coming.” GC88 370.2 The wise Virgins in Christ's parable received oil in their vessels with their lamps, but the foolish Virgins received their lamps [only]. There is no mention of the foolish virgins receiving either oil or vessels of oil with their lamps until after it was too late when they returned only to be refused admission to the wedding. As with the foolish virgins, some professed believers receive knowledge about Spiritual truth, but they never personally know Jesus. The foolish Virgins have “a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof” (2 Timothy 3:5). Of these, Jesus said, “I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity” (Matthew 7:23). This is the time to be sure that we have received the vessel of oil with our lamps God's Word Gives Authority To know when Christ’s Return is even at the door
"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
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