I can only go by what you share, of course I don't understand what you don't share.

So far you've shared --



That sounds very much like you believe that the "old covenant" was a covenant by which people were saved by their law keeping.

And now you say you disagree with me when I stated:


If you disagree with me on that point, then I can only conclude that you actually do think the people in the old testament obtained salvation by law keeping, not by faith in the promise of the coming Redeemer/Messiah to whom the sacrificial offerings pointed.


I did agree that the cross brought an end to the sacrificial ceremonies and rituals.

Lest this thread be de-railed, one should start another conversation.

If you would like to delve deeper into the study of the covenant, then yes, it would be good to start a new thread on that subject.

Right now the subject is still on the sanctity of the 7th day, and why people have forsaken the 7th day and made Sunday the "Christian Sabbath".

On whose authority was this change made?

And yes, it seems we are looking at an important point in our present discussion.

What I've picked up so far -- (and please clarify if this is not so) but what I've picked up so far is a general idea that the Israelites were given the commandments as a means of salvation, that somehow they were saved by keeping the law -- the ten commandments -- and observing Saturday.

The idea then seemed to be implied that now the commandments are no longer the means of salvation, since Christ died to save us, thus no more commandments and no more sanctified 7th "Saturday" Sabbath.


But let's get down to the foundation of that argument -- I do not believe the Sabbath is the means of salvation for anyone. Keeping the Sabbath isn't going to wipe out a single sin, it didn't back in the OT, and it doesn't now. The saving aspect is IN CHRIST who not only forgives, but also leads those of faith into newness of life, on paths of righteousness.

The commandments pointed out sin in the OT, and they still point out sin. It's our transgression that put both them and us in desperate need for a Savior.

But sin is still sin -- and the NT tells us the commandments point out sin. (Romans 3:20, 7:7,
Paul is pretty strong on telling his readers that God's awesome grace does NOT give license to continue in sin. (Romans 6:1=2)

The issue here is -- by whose authority was Sunday established as the "high day" for worship?

It's an important question, for upon it rests WHO we are following.

For myself and most Adventists, God is the authority, and He made it quite plain which day He blessed and sanctified and asked His people to remember -- at creation (Gen. 2:1-3, in His commandments which He spoke and wrote, (Ex. 20).

These are NOT "reasons". These are 5 important LAWS that are the core of the plan of salvation because they all point to the path of Sonship.

Plus my goal is not to support Sunday as the "new" Sabbath so to establish a new worship day. I said very clearly in my first post that BOTH the Sabbath Law and the 8th day laws are important and have different function in the plan of salvation.


Wow. This reasoning is with an old covenant mindset.

The circumcision law on the eight day is not about how we can benefit of the optimal time of blood clotting. God's purpose and His fulfillment of this law is NOT about doing the circumcision physically at all (as Paul talked about extensively). God ask the Israelites to do it physically because they were not mature enough as a Church to understand spiritual matters. So God taught them spiritual things with physical-literal-natural things with the laws. The law is a teaching tool (see Gal 4). Paul tells us the law[Torah=Pentateuch] is spiritual and Jesus told us that they are prophetic (Mat 5:18; Mat 11:13).

Some say that circumcision has health benefits (it is debatable) and yes if you believe this and are going to do it to a newborn, then better to do it on the eight day.

However don't you know what the Bible teach about what is the new covenant meaning of circumcision? Moses made it clear 40 years later before the new generation of Israelites entered the promised land what was the circumcision law really about -- it was about the circumcision of the heart...NOT about snipping the foreskin off.

Deut 30:6 "Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God will all your heart and with all your soul, in order that you may live."

Man with his Old covenant vows could only circumcise their flesh physically; but Moses understood the law (the Torah==Pentateuch) and what it pointed to with the New Covenant mindset.

The circumcision of the heart is something only God can do in us. No man can circumcise his own heart. Only God can do this work which is the stamp of the New Covenant. Jer 31:33 says it in this way...God will write His laws in our heart. Is this part of the circumcision of the heart? I think so. Can we write God's law in our hearts...No. It is 100% dependable on God's doing and His work -- His 7 day works... not ours.


It doesn't matter if it falls on any day of the week as people are born on any day of the week; this basic law is the foundation law upon the Passover, Pentecost, Tabernacle, the dedication of Priests, and the Jubilee lies upon. This law tells us that God will perform this unseen work of circumcision of the heart in a cycle model of 7 days. Then on the 8th day, the son(with a fully circumcised heart) is presented to Him.


??? I don't know why you think I would assume it began on a Sabbath. A week typically begins on a Sunday and I would believe that God would follow His own weekly creation law to fulfill the consecration of the Priesthood in Moses time and at the coming Tabernacle 8 day Feast when the 144k -- the overcomers who will be consecrated as the body of Priests under Christ.

Whatever day the consecration of Aaron & his sons started and was done is not the point. This law is another 8 days law following the circumcision law and time pattern of 7 days + 1.


The 8 days of consecration law is not the same as the 7 days of cleansing law. The cleansing law could represents the first part of the 7 days of the priesthood consecration law. But it doesn't represent the second part-- the 8th day.

Again these 8 days laws are establish on the 7 + 1 cycle model. Most doesn't stress the exactitude of which days of the week it begins or ends. Despite Passover and other Feast days could fall on any day of the week; what is important to note is when God fulfilled the resurrection day for Jesus and Pentecost for the Church -- He made both events fall on the first day of the week.

It is the way God fulfilled these laws that counts and which day He makes then fall on.

I expect God will fulfilled the Fall Feasts
-the 1st day of 7th Month==Feast of Trumpets == resurrection day;
-the 15th day==1st day of Tabernacle; and
-the 22nd day==8th day of Tabernacle)
in the same manner of the spring feast -- on the first day of the week.

Do note that these 3 declared Feast days are said in scripture to be a Sabbath ( not do any work and have a holy convocation). There are 4 other Feast days that are declared as Sabbath days too (The first day of unleavened bread, the 7th day of unleavened bread, The wave-sheave, and Pentecost).


If you count between the 15th and 22nd there's 8 days, not 7 days. If you read the law about the Feast of Tabernacle, it is pattern after the 7days + 1 day pattern also as the circumcision and Priesthood consecration law.

These laws including the 7th day sabbath law is not about a "new day of worship". You are completely missing the point and purpose of these laws like you did with the circumcision law. You only can see the letter of the law. You need to think outside the Old covenant mindset and way of reading or keeping the law(the Torah).

The 7 day Sabbath law, which is the first part of the five 8th day laws that I've listed, is about the cycle time of sanctification. To put it in another word -- it is the time that God takes to "circumcise" the heart -- whether it be in 7 "days", or 7 x 7 "days" (Pentecost), or 7 x 7 "years" (Jubilee). These are all time cycle TYPES-- these do not represents exactitude of time it actually takes for God to sanctify or purify or circumcise any man's heart.

The second part, the 8th day -- is about presenting the [sanctified] son to God and having His glory manifested to the world.

However, the fulfillment of these 8th day laws, I suspect will all end on the first day of the week, like it did at the time of the fulfillment of the Spring Feasts.


Dedication, it is sad to see you continually twist scriptures in any way possible to support your pre-conceived ideas. It's been years I've have known you and you have persisted in this path so numerous time.

If you had done any little digging before posting to really find out what scripture really means; you would know that "evening" also means in scriptures when the sun starts going down at noon time. For examples, the Passover lamb, according to the law, needed to be sacrifice between evenings. There are two evenings: the first being when the sun starts to go down after noon, and the second being when the sun goes down from the horizon.

I don't know if there's many Greek word for evening but the BlueBible has defined opsios G3798 -- evening as :
A.either from three to six o'clock p.m.
B. from six o'clock p.m. to the beginning of night

Elle, the fact that dedication twists Scripture is not so much of a problem in itself; because no one has a perfect understanding of God's word we all twist Scripture as we struggle to know what God wants, etc. We often don't recognize our twisting, but sometimes it is intentional.

My issue with dedication is her insistence on twisting my position to suit some far-fetched interpretation and then attacking that interpretation, which is nowhere near what I was trying to say. This is the thing that wears me out and is discouraging to the point that I eventually loose interest in constantly fighting her wrong views and outlandish interpretations of what I was trying to say. She has absolutely no interest in discussion other than proving that she is right and you are wrong.

If your goal is not to show if Sunday was made a day of worship or not, then you are off topic and should start a new thread.


My whole point (which you call twisting the scriptures) was to show that "the eighth day" after a given day falls on the same day a week later. If something begins on Tuesday, Tuesday is the FIRST day of that sequence, and the next Tuesday is the eighth day.

I wasn't "TWISTING" -- the 8th day argument is one often encountered by those who promote Sunday, which is the topic of this thread.

You have NEVER even tried to explain "your position", except with a couple comments that the cross changed everything and the ten commandments are no more.

That seemed like plain English to me, how did I twist those comments?
- how can I discuss except with what seems obvious. I answered with WHAT I BELIEVE, and asked you to explain how your thoughts differ or agree, but you won't meet me on what I believe or see, and treat it as "the stupidity of Adventism" or worse.

No wonder we can't discuss anything.

JAK,

I just want you to know that God's promises are for you. They are for everyone, even for non-Christians who are asking for God's help for the first time without having any prior experience with Him. God cares deeply for everyone, whether Adventist or not, and, though I am an Adventist, being an Adventist is not of itself a ticket to Heaven, nor the only passage there.

That said, I also feel the need to apologize, on behalf of the insensitive Adventists posting here, for their blindness. James, every chapter of the book, applies to them. Several posters here seem to have as their favorite activity that of proving others wrong. In virtually every post they make, they seek to show how their own ideas, opinions, interpretations, values, ethics, etc. are somehow better. Please forgive them, for they know not what they do.

Having taken a long hiatus from this forum and coming back to it, my eyes have been opened in counter-culture-shock style. This forum is no longer, if it ever was, a place of Bible study for seekers. It is a place for sword-fighting. God says to us that those who live by the sword will die by the sword, and that we should not judge others lest we be judged in like manner. It is sobering to see how few take that to heart.

Please know that the most dedicated and humble Adventists will often, themselves, feel out of place on a forum like this, and those remaining are of the more opinionated and vocal sort. God is not in the wrangling. This is my primary reason for losing interest in participating here. If the Adventists you know best are those of this forum, I'm sorry. Please reach out to others who may not be involved in online debates. I believe they will receive you more warmly and with genuine consideration for your questions and needs.

May God bless,

Green Cochoa.

Green: No soul is ever finally deserted of God, given up to his own ways, so long as there is any hope of his salvation. "Man turns from God, not God from him." Our heavenly Father follows us with appeals and warnings and assurances of compassion, until further opportunities and privileges would be wholly in vain. The responsibility rests with the sinner. By resisting the Spirit of God today, he prepares the way for a second resistance of light when it comes with mightier power. Thus he passes on from one stage of resistance to another, until at last the light will fail to impress, and he will cease to respond in any measure to the Spirit of God. Then even "the light that is in thee" has become darkness. The very truth we do know has become so perverted as to increase the blindness of the soul. {MB 93.1}

Green, you HAVE been gone for a long time; almost a year. It's nice to hear from you again. And you are right about the changes at the forum. Where are the Biblical scholars? Johann, Rosangela, Mark Shipowick, Mountain Man and others who could disagree with one's position but maintain Christian love and manners. They're all gone.

It's no longer about learning and exploring scripture. As you just said--now it's only about fighting.

After more than 30 years working for the (SDA) church in such varied places as Asia, Africa, Polynesia, and Central America, I realized that the church and church leadership (especially the leadership) is steeped in the attitude of "we're right/you're wrong," the exact same attitude that now permeates this forum.

I have been gone from Adventism for a little over a year now, driven out by the self-serving, old-boys club attitudes of the leadership and the sanctimonious judgements of the members. I did not, however, leave God or his real church. I must say that life is better and happier WITHOUT the church than it ever was IN the church.

As someone recently commented to me: "I used to drink the Kool-Aid. Now I drink beer and I'm much happier."