John 7:17
"If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own."

"...Choose today whom you will serve" ...Joshua 24:15

Not a bad thought..

On the one hand, it's true, after Adam's sin, mankind lost his freewill. There was only one door for him and that was sin and death.

There was absolutely nothing a person could do to awaken their spiritual nature.

BUT

and there is a big BUT

Right there in the Garden of Eden God predetermined that mankind would not be left in that state.

"I will put enmity between .... Gen. 3:16

Right there in the garden of Eden God placed something into the conscience of mankind --
-- enmity against satan
-- a longing for God.

Through these the Holy spirit works on EVERY heart to direct them toward Christ.

At the final judgment no one will say --
"God, I'm lost because YOU DIDN'T draw me, you decided i wasn't worth your grace."

At the final judgment everyone will see that God poured out heaven to save all who would respond. His grace is sufficient for all. God is no respector of persons but longs for all to come to Him in repentance.

Rev. 22:17 "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

Here is a Adventist take on this doctrine..

"Original Sin and the Use of Force
Saint Augustine of Hippo (A.D. 354-430) is usually credited by historians and theologians as the architect of the doctrine called original sin—the theory that, because of Adam’s sin, every human being is a condemned sinner at birth. Before Augustine, Christians generally believed that while physical corruption was inherited by all human beings from Adam, guilt was acquired only by the individual’s choice to sin.1

Augustine’s doctrine, by contrast, maintained that guilt as well as weakness was every person’s birthright.

Such a concept soon led to the belief that if babies died before baptism, without the chance to have original sin cleansed from their souls, they would go to hell.2 It also established the premise that because of man’s incurable depravity, force could rightly be used against heretics and sinners....

Despite their rejection of many Catholic teachings, the magisterial Protestant Reformers, especially John Calvin, adhered strongly to Augustine’s view of human nature.4 Thus Calvin, like Augustine and medieval Catholicism, believed in the church’s dominance of civil government and the use of force against dissenters. Calvin’s consent to the burning of Michael Servetus in Geneva, an act praised by Catholics as well as Protestants, offers evidence in this regard.5

Predestination
For both Calvin and Augustine, the doctrine of involuntary sin made necessary a doctrine of involuntary salvation. Thus the theory of predestination was born. Certain ones would be predestined to be saved, while the others are predestined to be damned. Such a concept removes salvation entirely from the practical experience of humanity, since that experience is presumably—and inevitably, even for the converted Christian—tainted by original sin. In Calvin’s words: “Until we slough off this mortal body, there remains always in us much imperfection and infirmity, so that we always remain poor and wretched sinners in the presence of God. And, however much we ought day by day to increase and grow in God’s righteousness, there will never be plentitude or perfection while we live here.”6

The salvation of men and women is therefore not, according to this theology, a freedom from sin accomplished in this present life, but only a promise of such freedom and eternal bliss in the life to come.

Not all Protestants, of course, accepted the theology of Augustine and the magisterial Reformers. Those of the Arminian-Anabaptist tradition took a very different view of sin, guilt, and the use of force. Rejecting original sin, these groups insisted on adult baptism, and from them arose in time the Wesleyan movement in England, with its stress on victory over sin in this present life. Commenting on this branch of Protestantism, the historian Will Durant writes: “There is no clear filiation between the Continental Anabaptists and the English Quakers and the American Baptists; but the Quaker rejection of war and oaths, and the Baptist insistence on adult baptism probably stem from the same traditions of creed and conduct that in Switzerland, Germany, and Holland took Anabaptist forms. One quality nearly all these groups had in common—their willingness to bear peaceably with faiths other than their own.” http://libertymagazine.org/article/free-will-predestination-and-religious-liberty

Thanks for reviving this thread. Good topic. I thought that those in the Calvanist branch of Protestantism actually have a fairly good record for toleration. Maybe not as good as I thought?

I will admit straight up that I am not that well versed in Calvinism vs Arminianism. It would seem to me that the "Truth" would lie somewhere in the middle of those positions.

But I do have a question about Calvin's T.U.L.I.P. Actually several, but initially I would like to know what is meant by "total depravity." Does this mean that humans have absolutely no inclinations to good, or mercy, or compassion, or whatever? I'm not sure I could agree with that.

The following quote boggles the mind, "the Free Will of man towards the True Good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost: And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace". It sounds like the thesis abstract of a student of theology attempting to sound pedantic in order to impress his professors.

• No one can conceive of what he does not know -- so that we, cut off from the Garden of Eden since Adam, completely lost all revelation of God. This has nothing to do with free will or the lack thereof. A child of the Amazon, playing happily among the trees, has NO inkling of or desire for a Maritime SDA account. To urge upon him the utility of one would be like offering a roach for dinner to a wealthy man. It makes no sense in either case and may even be viewed as repulsive!
   
• It therefore takes someone who knows God to re-introduce Him in a way that is meaningful and appropriate. And even so, some of us are like that child in the forest, content with whatever we have and inclined to reject outright any offer of a scholarship at a US school, for example. But some, given to adventure, curiosity and wonder, would leap at the opportunity.
  
  This has nothing to do with free will or the lack thereof; but rather with the nature of each individual (distinct and apart from any second or third party), being presented with the same offer and the freedom to choose, determining their own course of action.
   
• It is written, "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Rom. 10:17. You needed someone to teach you, to show you because you simply did not know. Darkness vs Light. Ignorance vs. Knowledge. NOT about free will which you have and always had and will.

///

Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. His eternal sacrifice bought us a second chance at eternal life. We are free to embrace Jesus as our Savior, free to resist our fallen inclinations, and free to imitate Jesus' lovely traits of character. Rebirth does not eliminate the voice of our fallen flesh nature. It continues to tempt us from within to live life in violation of God's will. But our natural, instinctive, inborn depravity does not make us guilty so long as we abide in Jesus and refuse to cherish or act out (in thought, words, or deeds) its unholy clamorings.

If you're able to watch this Mike (and anyone else) I'd like to hear your thoughts. This is yesterday evening's message by Steve Wohlberg on how the condition of Laodicea applies to all of us. He says we're all wretched, miserable, poor, blind etc.

Charity, thank you for the link. Appreciated there message. Yes, we are messed up from the core up. Thank you, Jesus, for saving us and for empowering us to possess the gold, white raiment, and eye salve. The 144,000 are Laodiceans. They will be translated alive when Jesus returns. More notably, however, believers who possess the Laodicean gifts are winsome and lovable and effective at winning others to Jesus.