Here is another interesting article by Vance Ferrell\:
Rick Warren and Saddleback Church

Here is another interesting article by Vance Ferrell\:
Rick Warren and Saddleback Church

Several years ago, we wrote about the training program for ministers at Bill Hybels Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, Illinois
[WM1003-1004]. It is a large Sundaykeeping church near Chicago. At the time, a statement was made in the Review that a very large number of Adventist ministers were taking that
training course...

In 1999 alone, 76,000 pastors and leaders from other denominations attended meetings on the campus of Willow Creek. Any church can join the Willow Creek Association for $249 a year. Over 3,300 local churches in America are members, including many of our own. They go there to learn how to talk more people into becoming church members.

The latest training course our pastors are attending to improve church growth are the seminars at an immense Sundaykeeping church in southern California. It is the Saddleback Church, in Lake Forest, California. The remainder of this report will be about Saddleback.

40 DAYS OF PURPOSE

We recently wrote about Rick Warrens 40 Days of Purpose which was presented over a period of six weeks in Adventist churches throughout the nation.

Over 8,000 churches from all 50 states and 19 countries have now participated in 40 Days of Purpose.Saddleback Church brochure.

During those consecutive Sabbaths, our people read through, and heard, sermons about Rick Warrens latest book, The Purpose Driven Life. (His earlier 1995 book was The Purpose
Driven Church.)

From another Saddleback brochure, we learn that 40 Days of Purpose was publicly endorsed and used in a large number of denominations, including the following: Assemblies of God,
Baptist, Church of God, Evangelical Free, International Pentecostal Holiness,
Seventh-day Adventist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Nazarene, Vineyard, along with
many others.

Church growth seminars teach visiting pastors how to bring more people in off the streets and get them to join the church in droves. Church growth seminars teach that doctrine
and standards should not be emphasized. Music, sociability, and excitement
are key factors in bringing in and holding the multitudes, but not religious
beliefs.

THE SADDLEBACK CHURCH

What is the Saddleback Church like This is from one of Saddlebacks brochures:

Our task is to equip pastors all over the world to plant and renew churches to become balanced, grow healthily, and reproduce . . Rick Warren has taught the PD principles to
more than 108,000 pastors on the campus of Saddleback Church alone.
Satellite-based simulcast events increase that number to more than 160,000
pastors. Add international events Australia, South Korea, Taiwan, China, the
Philippines, Hong Kong, Amsterdam and the number rises to over 180,000! . .


THE DECEMBER 18, 1997 ADVENTIST REVIEW ARTICLE

What to do with Willow Creek Fact: Americas most attended church, a noncharismatic nondenominational church in suburban Chicago, continues to shape not only its
immediate community but, more notably, the 2,200 member churches from 70
denominations participating in the Willow Creek Association. WCA endeavors to
help the church turn irreligious people into fully devoted followers of
Christ.

Fact: Adventists, both pastors and laypeople, consistently make up one of the largest groups at Willow Creeks half-dozen annual seminars including church leadership conferences
in May and October and a leadership summit in August.

Fact: The three latest Adventist churches to divide or depart [separate from the denomination]Oregons Sunnyside, Marylands Damascus, and Colorados Christ
Advent Fellowship were clearly influenced by Willow Creeks ministry hallmarks (small groups, spiritual gifts discovery, friendship evangelism, contemporary worship), if not its congregational status....

Here is more on Warren and his Sundaykeeping church:

Rick Warren aimed to first build one great church, then show others how to build theirs. He has devoted decades to teaching 300,000 pastors his principles for revival and
renewal . . Christianity Today dubbed Warren Americas most influential
pastor in a cover story last fall . .

Saddleback Church has grown from a Bible study in his condo in 1980 to 15,000 baptized members today. Another 70,000 people who've attended at least one service are in the
churchs database.

Every weekend nearly 19,000 worshipers choose from among nine venues as varied as the 3,000-seat main sanctuary, the coffee bar or the beach hut for high-schoolers. Built
into the landscape designed by theme park experts are settings for 40 Bible
re-enactments, including a stream that can part like the Red Sea.

From everywhere, but the acres of asphalt parking, a visitor can see, live or on tape-delay like Gospel TiVo, Warren at the pulpit, expounding on the Bibles script for you life . .

In the pulpit, Warren delivers 40 minutes of preaching. Then, mid-sermon, he literally chills out for 20 minutes, behind a bank of fans or in his icy office, to avoid blackout
headaches from a rare adrenaline disorder. Another of the churchs 13 pastors
carries on until Warren returns for a wrap-up . .

Warren is part of the ultra-conservative Southern Baptist Convention, and all his senior staff sign on to the SBCs doctrines . . yet Warrens pastor-training programs welcome
Catholics, Methodists, Mormons, Jews and ordained women . .

His 1995 book for pastors, The Purpose Driven Church, was all about surfing pop cultures waves to draw in the unchurched.USA Today, September 21, 2003.

If strange, new things are happening at your local church, it maybe because your pastor has studied at the feet of Sundaykeepers at Willow Creek or Saddleback. Or maybe it is because he learned new techniques at a local conference ministerial retreat, under the direction of men carefully trained under the direction of
non-Adventists who have no respect for obedience to the law of God, at one or both of those churches.

MARKETING STRATEGIES

This Willow Creek / Saddleback type of revival is actually religious marketing! Bill Hybels and Rick Warren rely on marketing strategies, psychology, polls, opinions,
compromise, business and psychological consultants, and business research
findings.

Their places of business are worship centers. Their mode of operation is Biblical words and phrases, and lots of modern musical styles in order to get people connected and
touch their felt needs.

The real problem of people is sin in the life. They need to return to God in heartfelt repentance and, in Christs enabling strength, put away those sins and keep Gods
commandments. But such things do not matter to these men.

Instead, modern entertainment methods are used to attract and hold the people, self-help books are provided to keep them contented, and leadership conferences are
given to lure other pastors elsewhere to copy their methods.

Astoundingly, books produced by those new-style churches are widely advertised, sold in our own bookstores, and used in our churches.

Rick Warrens marketing consultant is CMS, a full-service custom marketing and communications agency headquartered in Covina, California, which is skilled in aiding the Church
Growth Movement.

At CMS, we view it as our mission to help our clients grow their businesses. We do this by working with each client identifying opportunities and developing innovative, creative and profitable services which assist them in the execution of effective marketing, sales and communications program . . We
are best able to serve clients when they allow us to act as partners . . CMS
is made up of a team of talented individuals whose dedication and expertise
have earned them a solid reputation for creating results. CMS website:
christian-ministry.com.

CMS clients include Quaker, Isuzu Motors America, the City of West Covina, Saddleback Valley Community Church, Purpose Driven Ministries (a Saddleback subsidiary),
Smalley Relationship Center, and Walk through the Bible (Bruce Wilkinsons
Prayer of Jabez organization).

Do not expect Moses presentation of the Ten Commandments or John the Baptists call to repentance to be included among those management skills. Instead, you will find polls,
tracking surveys, and management skills aimed at producing satisfied
customers who keep returning for more of the product offered by the business.
In other words, give the customer what pleases them.....

Warren is deeply admired by Peter Drucker, because he is also a marketing strategist. The commercial methods Rick Warren and the Saddleback Church of selling products seem to
work as well for selling religion as anything else.

In a 2002 article in Business Week, Druckers plans and purposes are described:

He brings a communitarian philosophy to his consulting. . He said that what hes all about is this search for community, the search for where people and
organizations find community for noneconomic satisfaction . .

A lot of his ideas have become so accepted that its hard for anyone to understand how original they were at the time he introduced them. Its sort of like Freud and
psychoanalysis. Peter was the first, for example, to help managers understand
that they had to define their businesses from a customers perspective. Ken
Witty, Peter Druckers Search for Community, Business Week Online, December
24, 2002.

Rick Warren follows the same plan: Design the worship and the music and everything elseto appeal to the comfort of the people who live in the community.

Rick Warren believes that what he is doing is infallibly guided and has the fullest approval of God; for as he says, Never criticize what God is blessing (Purpose Driven Church, p. 62). Whatever the methods may be that bring large crowds in the your church, they are right; that is, if the large crowds come. Focusing on
the customers prospective brings success and the approval of God.

The key, according to these men, is to make the people living in the town happy. For Warren, this means focusing on the felt needs of unbelievers rather than the true needs of
Gods family. The marketing experts call this the dialectic process. Here
is how one person describes it:

In this movement, it is imperative that unbelievers are brought into the church; otherwise, the process of continual change cannot begin. There must be an antithesis
(unbelievers) present to oppose the thesis (believers), in order to move
towards consensus (compromise), and move the believers away from their moral
absolutism (resistance to pagan changes). If all members of the church stand
firm on the Word of God, and its final authority in all doctrine and
tradition, then the church cannot and will not change. This is common
faith. Robert Klenck, The 21st Century Church.

Many different organizations are reinventing themselves in order to follow the established tracks of corporate America. They may call their particular version of this system Total Quality Management, Outcome Based Education, or Purpose Driven Churches; but all follow the same pragmatic blueprint: Aim for
measurable results. Use Teams, dialogue, facilitators, lifelong learning,
contracts, and continual assessments of progress toward the planned
outcome. All involved must conform or leave the system.

THEOLOGY

Quietly whisper the prayer that will change your eternity: Jesus, I believe in you and I receive you. If you sincerely meant that prayer, congratulations! Welcome to the
family of God! You are now ready to discover and start living Gods purpose
for your life! (Rick Warren, in Foundation Magazine, March-April 1998).

No repentance. No sins to put away. Nothing in the Bible to obey. Just celebrate, come to church and sing and celebrate.

Knowing your purpose focuses your life. It concentrates your effort and energy on whats important. You become effective by being selective. Ibid.

Instead of repent, confess your sins, believe, and obey; as Warren describes it in his writings, this new-modeled faith teaches: Accept Christ, focus your life, increase
motivation, and begin an eternal celebration. Here are Rick Warrens five
purposes for your life:

You were planned for Gods pleasure. You were formed for Gods family. You were created to become like Christ. You were shaped for serving God. You were made for a
mission. The Purpose Driven Church, p. 1 (contents).

According to Warren, all you need to know are your five purposes and you can forget the rest.

Knowing your purpose simplifies your life. It defines what you do and what you dont do. Rick Warren, The Purpose Driven Life, p. 31.

Notice that you do the purposes. You do them all by yourself. And none of it requires obedience to Bible truth. Surely, somewhere Rick Warren says something about sin. Yes, he
does. Here it is:

All sin, at its root, is failing to give God glory . . Refusing to bring glory to God is prideful rebellion . . The Bible says, All have sinned and fall short of the glory of
God. Rick Warren, quoted in Foundation Magazine, March-April 1998, p. 55.

Warren here confuses cause with effect. We fall short of giving God the glory by sinning. A failure to bring Him glory is the effect, disobeying His commandments is the
cause. What is the best kind of worship Warren explains it is essentially
the kind you like the best.

Worship must be both accurate and authentic . . The best style of worship is the one that most authentically represents your love for God, based on the background and
personality God gave you. The Purpose Driven Life, p. 102....



MUSIC

In order to better understand the seriousness of this situation, you should be made aware of the fact that Rick Warren calls his church, the flock that likes to rock. He is
referring to the music at Saddleback. According to Warren, every possible
type of music is good, as long as it has Christian words!

There is no such thing as Christian music; there are only Christian lyrics. It is the words that make a song sacred, not the tune. There are no spiritual tunes. The Purpose
Driven Life, p. 66.

You must match your music to the kind of people God wants your church to reach . . The music you use positions your church in your community. It defines who you are . . It
will determine the kind of people you attract, the kind of people you keep,
and the kind of people you lose. Warren, Selecting Worship Music (July 29,
2002).

....http://www.sdadefend.com/MINDEX-U-Z/Saddleback.pdf

Well, if one does the math here; thats almost nineteen million dollars for all that "PURPOSE" that they preach. I think that about explains it

It seems a variation of Jim and Tammy Fayes PTL Network, making money any way they could, preaching what people wanted to hear rather than truth.

What is truth?

///

It seems to me that somebody else in the Bible asked that same question and then walked away.

I meant to make Rick realize that truth encompasses more than what one may choose to emphasize.

For instance, when SDA approach anyone, they are known for preaching the law and a sabbath. When Evangelicals approach anyone, they are known for speaking about the love of God and being born again. When Roman Catholics do so, they invariably choose to emphasize the primacy of the universal church under Christ through Peter and the seven sacraments. All these things are true. Emphasizing one above the others does not make you evil, just a bit biased and so blind to the height, depth and breadth of the Bible, the word of God.

The Bible is more than about looking solemn on Saturdays. It contains a wealth of information, enough to occupy us for as long as we shall live. Why not enjoy its many fruits by engaging in conversation with the like-minded and unlike-minded, with the brilliant and the naive, with the experienced and the homely, with old and the young, with the clergy and the laity, with the politicians and the grave-diggers? This is our Father's world. All He asks is that we do not eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

But then again, SDA are just plain wrong to pay millions of dollars for commonsense!

///

Primacy of the universal church through Peter?
This is new information. Please, tell us more about this.

That is the simplest thing anyone has ever asked to be told more about. Here goes:

Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." from Mat. 16:13-20

Christ built His church on a confession of faith in Him. But a confession is nothing except it be by a person, hence the play on the word "petros". The disciples, among whom Peter was foremost ***, were going to form the foundation of the Church. To prove it, Jesus Himself showed John how He, Jesus, established and raised His City, the New Jerusalem (i.e. the one and only universal church). "Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." Rev. 21:14

-----------------------

*** Peter, standing up with the eleven [on the day of Pentecost], raised his voice and said to [the crowd], "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. ..." Acts 2:14 Peter became the symbol, the personification of the 12 apostles altogether.

///

What do you think about paying to receive knowledge? Should SDA pastors pay AU to learn Greek or Church History or Outreach Ministry?

"and on this rock I will build My church,"

It says, He was going to build the church on a rock. Not Peter.




So by raising his voice and saying heed my words, makes him "foremost"?

Question, did any other disciple raise his voice or say heed my words?

You saying "It says, He was going to build the church on a rock. Not Peter." is like saying that the world is going to end, not τέλος or that the sky is falling not πτώση. The disciple's proper name was Simon Bar-Jonah, but Jesus gave him the name by which we now popularly call him, "Peter".

So He is saying, "You Simon are a rock and upon this rock I will build my church". Read the passage for yourself. He did not call any other disciple that, nor did he gave any other disciple that specific name of "rock" or, as we say in English, "Peter".

I suppose you are wanting me to say:

Petros - a piece of rock
Petra - a mass of rock


Petra
wise man builds house on rock
rocks rent
tomb hewed out of the rock
seed fell on the rock, and are they who hear the word
stumblingstone rock
Israelites drank of the spiritual Rock which was Christ 1 Cor 10:4
a rock of offence
dens in the rock
rocks fall on them.

Petros
name of Peter
And that's all I could find. Can you find something else?

Is this the only passage you can find supporting the idea that Peter is somehow of foremost?
If I were to show you another passage suggesting some other was "foremost" which would you believe and why?

That is incorrect. That was not the disciple's name, but what Christ called him. And it means rock, being a play on the word and representative of the stones, the foundation upon which the temple was laid.

"And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." -- Jesus Christ to Simon Bar-Jonah, Mat. 16:18

Peter, that rock, was representative of His 12 disciples who would go on to bear witness of Him to the world and form the foundation of the one and only universal church made up of people who believe in the Saviour, Jesus of Nazareth. The Church of Christ is NOT a registered denomination for which there are trademarks for names and logos, but encompasses all and sundry who love God and follow His Only-begotten Son, even those who don't know Him but who seek to do good always.

Jesus Himself said so. "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." John 4:21-24

The Petra (ROCK) is Christ the HEAD STONE.
The petros (living stones) are the people which comprise the church

Peter himself, explains it. In 1 Peter 2.

Let's look at this in the context of what scripture says. Who is the rock upon which the church is built?

In every stone building, one stone is crucial. It is laid first, and it is to ensure that the building is square and stable. It is the rock upon which the weight of the entire structure rests. It is the cornerstone.

Scripture describes Jesus as the "Chief Cornerstone" of our salvation. As the Chief Cornerstone, He alone ensures the stability of of His church.. Isaiah 28:16, "Therefore this says the Lord God: 'Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, a tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation.'"
Ephesians 2:20 "Jesus Christ being the Chief Cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple of the Lord,"
2 Sam. 22:2-3, "The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer; 3 My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge."
Psalm 18:31, "And who is a rock, except our God."
Isaiah 44:8, "Is there any God besides Me, or is there any other Rock? I know of none."
Psalm 118:22 "The stone which the builders rejected has become the head stone"
Eph. 5:23 " Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Savior of the body.

Believers, who accept Jesus as the rock of our salvation, acknowledging Him as Emmanuel, God with us, the eternal Son of God -- what do they represent?
They are the "living stones" of the church.

1 Peter 2

2:6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,

?Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, [Jesus Christ]
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.?

2:3 if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
2:4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious,
2:5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
2:6 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious;
but to those who are disobedient,
2:7?The stone which the builders rejected
Which has become the chief cornerstone,?
2:8 [has become] ?A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.?
They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

Conclusion:
While the apostle Peter is one of the living stones -- occupying a foundational position with the apostles and prophets in Christ's church, he is NOT "foremost" nor is he the "stability" or "head" , That position is occupied by ONLY ONE -- and no finite man can take that place. Christ is the solid rock upon which the church is built. He is the head, and no one claiming peter's name can take that place.
Peter, himself needed to be anchored in the solid rock which is Christ in order to be a worker for the Lord, To reject Christ as the solid rock upon which the church is built and to look upon finite man to take that place is to stumble and fall

In 1997 we lived in Forest Grove, Or. and went to the Gaston, Or. church. The pastor there was a huge fan of Willow Creek. Coincidentally, just before we started attending there he had an affair and got caught. His brother was a big shot in the Oregon Conference so nothing happened to him. It just so happened that his brother was also a big fan of Willow Creek. That Pastor had no use for Ellen White and her writings.

I began preaching there once a month and it lasted until he wormed his way somewhat back into the good graces of the members. I also split time with the head elder teaching his SS class. It was the most active I had ever been in a church I attended.

That pastor tore that church apart with his antics.

He sat in on the SS I attended once and said the following, paraphrased. He said that the sincere members of the church were different spiritually than the rest of the members. It surprised me he would admit that publicly. I don't know what his motives were but I suspect it was at least partially to get back in the good graces of the members.