Amen brother,

'Christ our Righteousness' will triumph, swelling to a 'loud cry'.

Charity,

I really appreciate your concern with revival for Christ cannot return until it happens.

I believe the east refers some what metaphorically to the "Son of Righteousness" arising with healing in His wings. This happens globally as Christ raises up a remnant to go beyond religion, and storm the gates of heaven for transformation of heart & character. As we can see it is easy to wander from the real message of the characteristics of revival. Revival means a recovery of life to the dead. A man may physically die for the moment, his heart stop beating, but he may be revived, brought back to life by CPR. As Christ said "your brother was dead, but now is alive again"

A church or people who need revival are spiritually dead, disconnected from God, but not from religion. When a church dies, it still continues on as though it were alive. In fact a dead church spends most of its time & energy trying to convince its dead members that it is still alive and "increased with spiritual goods" rather than admit that it is dead. Thus any revival must always begin with an honest confession of its deadness due to a separation from God.

Christ makes our condition of deadness clear in the "Laodicean message".

Rev 3:15? I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou were cold or hot.?
Rev 3:16? So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth.?
Rev 3:17? Because thou say, I am rich, and increased with goods (spiritual life), and have need of nothing; and know not (are deceived to the fact) that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked (This is a description of spiritual death):?

Thus, the first step in revival is confession to God that we are spiritually dead, separated from God, yet still playing church as though we were spiritually alive. This is Christs evaluation of our condition, no matter what we may do, we may convince most of the church members that we are not "lukewarm", but we will never convince Christ. If the church is right, then Christ is wrong, which can never happen. This type of honesty & confession , the humbling of the heart before God, is not natural or pleasant to the one playing church. Yet this will lead us to the next step in revival, repentance. Christ can never lead us to repentance until we confess the truth to Him, that we are dead. This is the one thing that the corporate church will not do, thus any pursuit of revival will fall short. Thus it becomes an individual responsibility.

Rev 3:18? I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou may be rich; and white raiment, that thou may be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness does not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye-salve, that thou may see.?
Rev 3:19? As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.?

You will notice that Christ says we must "buy of Him" these blessings which He offers, not just "accept" them as a free gift as religion teaches. I think I will believe Christ here for this for He knows best. Yet this transaction does not include money or works nor even faith at first, but repentance. The surrender of all to Christ, a decision to be crucified with Christ, & raised in Him a "new creation" reborn in the very image of Christ Himself. He now takes possession of the heart and leads one to live by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God. This is the price which me must pay in order to receive these gifts.

COL 116 - In the parable the pearl is not represented as a gift. The merchantman bought it at the price of all (the cost of salvation) that he had. Many question the meaning of this, since Christ is represent-ed in the Scriptures as a gift. He is a gift, but only to those who give themselves (completely), soul, body, and spirit, to Him without reserve. We are to give ourselves to Christ, to live a life of willing obedience to all His requirements (every word that proceeds from the mouth of God including Spirit of Prophecy). All that we are, all the talents and capabilities we possess, are the Lord's (for He already bought them on the cross), to be consecrated to His service. When we thus give ourselves wholly to Him (our part of the transaction of the ?New Covenant?), Christ, with all the treasures of heaven, gives Himself to us (to dwell in us, His part of the transaction). We obtain (Christ) the pearl of great price. (He gave Himself to & for us, there-by purchasing us, so we in turn give ourselves to Him to complete the transaction because He already paid for us)
Salvation is a free gift, and yet it is to be bought and sold. In the market of which divine mercy has the management, the precious pearl is represented as being bought without money and without price. In this market all may (117) obtain the goods of heaven. The treasury of the jewels of truth is open to all. "Behold, I have set before thee an open door," the Lord declares, "and no man can shut it." No sword guards the way through this door. Voices from within and at the door say, Come. The Savior earnestly, lovingly invites us: "I counsel you to buy of Me gold tried in the fire, that you may be rich." Rev 3:18.
The gospel of Christ is a blessing that all may possess. The poorest are as able as the richest to purchase salvation; for no amount of worldly wealth can secure it. It is obtained by (covenanting or agreeing to give to Christ our) willing obedience, by giving ourselves to Christ as His own purchased possession.

We will never know the true characteristics of revival until we are revived ourselves. I did what I share above and Christ revived me, entering my heart & filling me with all the fullness of God. Prise His Holy name!

May God richly bless you in your quest for revival,

Pilgrim

I am totally amazed that there is virtually no interest in revival & reformation.

Could it be that it is just not doctrinal enough. We seem anxious to debate doctrine, but revival is an internal experience with Christ himself, leading to resurrection from spiritual death.There is so much more to truth than just debating doctrine. We are to become the truth.

Without this revival, we will not make it to the kingdom. Even the GC s pushing for revival & reformation.

May God help us to awake to righteousness for He is even at the door. That which we have been preaching for over a hundred years is now at hand and only the revived wise virgins will be ready for Christ when He returns.

God bless,

Pilgrim

People are interested in revival and reformation a whole lot more than you seem to realize!!!


But these posts are basically "debating doctrine", they are not really discussions.
Putting out arguments as to what "revival" means.
Arguing about what "buy of me" means.
Assuming one is revived and others aren't revived.
Those are all theological doctrines.

But the most problematic is the pulling away from church.
That seems to under lace so many of your posts --
The impression that attending church is actually wrong -- a bunch of hypocrites, pretending.


I'm glad you realize that the GC is urging reformation and revival!
That acknowledgement is a step in the right direction.





In real life -- we are struggling to simply, literally REVIVE our church and bring people together again, to worship and pray together. A step that comes before any "church repentance" and church spiritual revival could even take place.
This is not some theological thing, it is literal. After all this commotion of Covid-19, lockdowns, and everyone being isolated in their homes every Sabbath. Sorry but computers, though better than nothing, don't replace people worshipping together, to pray together, encourage one another, etc. Computers only convey information, the human aspect is missing. The Spirit of corporate worship is gone.
Sure our church is open again -- but only a small percentage attend, and they with enforced masks and social distancing, everyone sitting in their own corner in the church. A sense of fear pervading, (not godly fear, but fear that someone might carry a germ) There is a real fracture -- an everyone on their own -- type of feeling.
Satan has scored big with this Covid stuff.

He's brought in a situation 100% at odds with the upper room experience of the disciples just before the early rain fell. They were together of one accord in one place worshipping and praying when the Holy Spirit came.

The Bible says "forsake not the assemble together"
EGW urges God's people to "press together, press together" in unity, in Christ.

I admire those "Babylonian" as you call them, churches who are standing up and saying government has no right to stop us from coming together and worshipping and praying. We must obey God rather than man. Though I don't agree with their theology in a lot of things, they do have something our fear driven churches that make sure we stay fearful, masked and distanced, lack.

Thanks for the reply,

My friend i is not I who call them Babylon, but Christ. Yes that is a doctrine, describing their condition in the eyes of God and calling them to come out.

Admire them if you wish, but Christ is not doing so. I am not here to convince you of anything but to share what God says. If you wish to be out of harmony with God on this, it is your right & prerogative

Here again you seem to impugn my motives and attach to me your own opinions of what I share. This is not how honest discussion is handled. Everything I share is from the Scriptures & SOP.

It is not my job to convince you of anything, I just share with you God's point of view, the Holy Spirit will convince any who are open to it.:

Contrary to what you assert, I go to church and have not discouraged any from doing so, but in going to church I seek to help others to see the truth and connect with Christ the leader of the faithful in the church and learn to hear His voice and follow Him & not man.

EW 237 - As the churches refused to receive the first angel's message, they rejected the light from heaven and fell from the favor of God. (became fallen churches) They trusted to their own strength, and by opposing the first message placed themselves where they could not see the light of the second angel's message. But the beloved of God, who were oppressed, accepted the message, "Babylon is fallen," and left the churches.

4SP 232 - When the churches spurned the counsel of God by rejecting the Advent message, the Lord rejected them. The first angel was followed by a second, proclaiming, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." [Revelation 14:8] This message was understood by Adventists to be an announcement of the moral fall of the churches in consequence of their rejection of the first message. The proclamation, "Babylon is fallen," was given in the summer of 1844, and as the result, about fifty thousand withdrew from these churches.

It cannot get much clear that this, It is God who calls them Babylon, I just share the message of Christ.

Can it really be that you don't understand the 2nd Angels message. I realize that it kind of disappeared from Adventism sometime after 1900. I just figured that those who claim to give the 3 angels messages would understand the 2nd Angel. No wonder Christ has not returned.

Even though we may disagree, I still love you brother and will not judge your motives.

Pilgrim

Referring to your statement
"Here again you seem to impugn my motives and attach to me your own opinions of what I share. This is not how honest discussion is handled."
I think you have done that in the post above, so the statement may apply both ways.

I don't remember asserting that you don't go to church.

Now I confess, I may be mixing up some of your comments with that of another poster, Pete --
You both came about the same time and both seemed to have similar postings about the Adventist church falling and the GC fallen and all that. The sudden double dose of that in post after post, seemed rather like an agenda to draw people out of the church. I mean, who wants to belong to a "fallen church" -- isn't the 2nd angel's message "Come out" of the fallen churches?
I am a Seventh-day Adventist because I believe this church has the true message (even if there are a lot of problems and false movements in the church) it's still the only church I know that has the true message, and in my understanding, attacking the church in the name of "connecting people to Christ as their leader" just is not the way to connect people to Christ.

I have no problem with exposing or warning about PROBLEM areas in the church, but a systematic attack on the church as "fallen" or "in apostasy" which is basically the same thing, is not the way to do that. (A church in apostasy, and a lot of apostasy being in the church are not the same thing)

Also,
Yes, I do admire many in the other denominations. I've met some real Christians from other churches.

Just because we do not BELIEVE their doctrines, thus do not become members of their denominations, does not mean we can't admire and love them, as many of them are honest Christians, who love the Lord and want to do His will, often showing more fruits of the Holy Spirit than many Adventists.

Are we "faithful witnesses" when go about disparaging the people in other denominations. I think not. Nor is the 2nd angel's message a call to denounce the people in those churches, and to consider them less than ourselves.

MOST of God's people are still in those churches. The second angel calls them God's people.
Babylon means "confusion" and yes, their doctrines on many points are a confused, and misleading deceptive tangle. They need to come out of that confusion. But we need to treat the people with respect, we can admire their goodness, and honesty, or how can we share our beliefs with them?

And yes, I do think their stand against the government's actions of implementing the authority of government over the right to worship, was a brave thing. It was NOT a "babylonian" stand but a true protestant stand, even if their doctrines are "confusion" and babylonian.


Yes, the time will come when the faithful will leave those churches and follow Christ more fully.

But what is interesting in your comments is how you refer back to 1844 --
When the mainline Protestant churches rejected the Advent message, which led to the rejection of the sanctuary message, which led to the rejection of the Sabbath message, which led to other slides away from true Protestantism.

Aren't those all DOCTRINES which the Adventist Church teaches, and which I hear you calling "religious philosophy" which seems to imply that the preaching of the doctrines as wrong.
Why are you speaking against evangelists who are teaching and giving Biblical bases for the doctrines?
Aren't those the very things that the "Babylon" churches rejected, that caused them to become part of Babylon?

Aren't those doctrines the very things they need to hear?
They, at least the ones that faithfully attend their churches, already love Jesus, they already believe in the cross.

Now I realize your focus is on repentance, and you seem to feel repentance is no longer taught
-- But isn't it precisely those Adventist doctrines that call for repentance? --

The problem, when repentance takes a back seat, is when those Adventist doctrines are no longer taught. When they are properly taught, it definitely includes repentance and coming to Christ Our Savior, High Priest, Lord, Creator, and King.

I guess it depends where you look in Adventism. If you look for the thorns, you will find lots of them. If you look for Christ centered Biblical doctrine and the story of Redemption, you will find it.

Look for the good, I know it's hard when there is so much confusion and evil, but the good is still there, and Christ is still leading people within Adventism, and yes, even people in other churches.
We will be astonished, when we see all the ones Christ has saved, which we may have thought would never be part of the redeemed.

Revival is a personal thing.
It involves a personal encounter with Christ and is sustained only in a personal walk with Christ.

People who look to the church for their "revival" are indeed looking to the wrong source.
How long do revivals last when done in "mass"? A powerful preacher comes and people are hugely stirred to seek cleansing and salvation, emotions run high, it looks and feels like revival, people confess their sinfulness, they pray, but once the preacher leaves and regular duties of life return, it all reverts back to life as usual. Everything had been done on the current of emotion brought alive by the preacher and the crowd, somehow it had not taken solid root within the individual lives.

So where is the fault ?

Don't look to the church for revival, revival is NOT a corporate thing, it is an individual sustainable relationship with Christ.
It is not a high emotional state, too many look for a high emotional state and think this is revival. Sure there is emotion in fellowship with our Savior, and it can be nice, but it is not the evidence or the sustaining factor of revival. Don't look for emotion as the evidence.

This is life eternal, to know God and Jesus.
Revival comes from seeking and KNOWING GOD, knowing truth, letting go of self centered, self powered religion, acknowledging the sinfulness and our absolute helplessness in our own self, it is accepting Christ's righteousness, giving Him our dirty rags, and accepting His justification, and seeking a continual walk with God, a continual commitment to live in the will of God. It is sharing with others, that they too may know and experience revival by seeking God with all their heart. Thus it grows.
The church can only be revived from within, by individual lives committed to Christ, it will never revive from the top down.
Don't expect the GC leadership to bring revival, all they can do is give information, set out policies for church standards, try to keep the church together, BUT they can't revive anyone. Don't expect them to do what they can't do. So take the information that is good, leave the information that is not good. Revival doesn't come by accusing the GC for not producing it.

For revival -- only the Holy Spirit can bring revival. Only in Christ is their new life. All heaven stands eager to bring us revival. And it's up to the individual to seek after the things of God and accept and follow the things of God, or live in accordance to self.

Amen "sister". I am beginning to see that you are a "tiger", no I'm sorry, a "Tigress" for truth & God.

God bless & keep,

Pilgrim

Just a word from God in SOP regarding the use of the will in overcoming sin, since it was alluded to in a previous post.

COL, 332 The heavenly intelligences will work with the human agent who seeks with determined faith that perfection of character which will reach out to perfection in action. To everyone engaged in this work Christ says, I am at your right hand to help you. (333)
As the will of man co-operates with the will of God, it becomes omnipotent. Whatever is to be done at His command may be accomplished in His strength. All His biddings are enablings.

Thus if we are all Christians, then our will in no longer powerless in doing God's will, but all powerful. We need no admonishment that we cannot do anything required. on our own, for we are never on our own, for Christ said He will never leave or forsake us. Only those who are not converted would need such admonishment.

now for the support of Scripture:

Php 4:13? I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.?

You see the true Christian has all the power of God to do what God requires.

Love in Christ.

Pilgrim

Just read through this thread and agree that revival and reformation is a very important part that is needed to inspire people to proclaim the message of the three angels.

Last week's Sabbath School study focused on the importance of Revelation 14.