The only thing that was cursed in those verses was the ground and the serpent.

Adam and Eve were not cursed. Consequences of their failed trust in God, and yielding to Satan however were predicted. Indeed people are suffering from sin, but perpetuating the consequences is not going to make it better.

I don't believe God "sanctioned" (made holy) a painful and terrible existence for women.

There are actually people who say it's wrong to give women medication to relieve child birth pain because God sanction that. No --

The relationship God ordained between husband and wife of love and respect -- one to protect, love and care for his family, the other to work with him as his companion to make home a happy, peaceful place, does NOT mean only men can be leaders in church and nor does it mean that it is sin for women to be recognized as leaders in sharing the gospel as well.

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Nobody has said that. God did tell Eve her husband would rule over her though. It's a consequence of sin. It seems to me you reject the clear, plain reading of scripture when it crosses your inclinations.

As far as I can see you did say, God cursed Adam and Eve and sanctioned what you refer to as the curse placed upon them. (Sanction=official permission or approval for an action. Sanctify = to make holy).

I disagree, God neither cursed nor sanctioned as in commanded and approved the consequences of sin on Adam and Eve.

The verse says the serpent (which includes both the snake and the one who used the most brilliant and flashy creature as his symbol and medium) was cursed.
It says the ground was cursed.

It does not say Adam and Eve were cursed.
In fact Eve was promised God would give her enmity against the serpent -- (give her protection from his deceptions)
Nor does it say God sanctioned or approved the consequences of sin. He would allow it to show what sin does to human nature and existence, but never commanded and approved it, His mission is to save and to lift people out of sin and restore them into His ways.

The consequences of sin are the result of sin. Once sin takes hold the physically stronger takes advantage of the physically weaker. That was not sanctioned or approved by God! It was a prediction that men, given superior physical strength to protect and provide for his family, would use that physical strength to rule and abuse those who are physically weaker.

The Bible is pretty clear that men (and women) are NOT to rule over others but to be submissive TO EACH OTHER.

Mark 10:42-45 Jesus called them together and said, ?You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.?

Eph. 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your OWN husbands, as UNTO THE LORD.
5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourishes and cherishes it,

Mark 5:5-9?It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law,? Jesus replied. ?But at the beginning of creation God ?made them male and female.?For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.?

So when we read this from Christ's point view.
-- The hardness of sin in the heart has caused the true relationship between husband and wife to be distorted and abused, with the stronger thinking they could subject or reject their wives according to their inclinations.
In the beginning it was not so, and when the heart is in tune with Christ the original can be restored. And Christ came to restore the true not to sanction the distortions.

Ruling over and subjecting others is a result of sin. Not a virtue of Christianity.

interestingly God's command was for a man to leave his father and mother and cling to his wife!
What do we see in history? Did the man leave father and mother and cling to his wife? No, they developed the patriarchal system where the eldest man ruled over sons and grandsons, and the sons brought their wives to basically be servants in their father's household. That was not God's command.

God didn't even want kings to rule over the people. It was a sad day when God, out of the hardness of Israel's hearts allowed them to have a king (to be like the nations around them). See 1 Samuel 8.

So God over rode His own word and contradicted Himself.

I'm sorry if you see God's willingness to work with people where they are at, as God contradicting Himself. I see it as God guiding them from the low points sin has pushed them down into, and lifting them up to higher points step by step -- the ultimate goal is to restore what God had in mind for humanity in the first place.

And yes, at times we see instructions in the Bible that are only "lessen the evil" as to how to deal with situations, but not the ultimate right way of dealing with the situation.

It's the only way to understand scripture and make sense of it. There are many things in scripture that are puzzling.

Why did God only lessen the evil of slavery --
Why does God give commands on how to treat slaves and that slaves should obey their masters (when it's not God's will that men make slaves of other men) (Eph. 6:5-9, Ex.21:2)
But there are laws in scripture that made the situation more tolerable in the hopes mankind would move higher and respect every human as an equal.

Why does scripture tolerate polygamy?
Why did God say he could have given king David more wives, if that's what he desired? (2 Sam.12:8) David was chastised for taking another man's wife, but never for taking multiple wives? Yet it's obvious from scripture that God's way is that a husband should have only one wife, that included even kings (Deut 17:17) and having no more than one wife is a criteria to be selected as a leader. In the NT men with more than one wife were excluded from spiritual leadership. (Titus 1:6) Multiple partners is totally out of sync with God's ideal for marriage.

Divorce?
Deut 24:1-2 makes it sound like a man could divorce his wife simply because he didn't like her anymore. Yet Jesus plainly says this was NOT the plan, it was allowed because of the hardness of man's heart. (Mark 5:5-7) God hates divorce. (Mal. 2:16) and admonishes a man to love his wife as his own flesh for they are one (Eph. 5:28,29)

God does show a willingness to work with people where they are at, but God is not contradicting Himself. I see it as God guiding people from the low points sin has pushed them down into, and lifting them up to higher points step by step -- God's ultimate goal is to restore what He had in mind for humanity in the first place,
And we too, should strive to know and experience his ultimate ways, not revert back into the "lesser evil" ways.

Sorry for not answering sooner. I just now saw this post,

My only answer to you is that God doesn't argue with Himself. He never contradicts Himself. A house divided cannot stand.

I'm glad you realize God doesn't contradict Himself.

But how are you going to explain that to slave owners being told that is not God's way to have slaves, but who point to Bible verses that talk about slaves and their masters?
Do we simply tell them, God doesn't contradict Himself, case closed?
-- thus the commands to slaves and their masters must mean slavery is acceptable?
Does that mean the abolition movement was going against God's commands. Slaves are to submit to their masters, not seek liberation?




And by the way, slave trade/trafficking is still in operation, just not legal in North America.

Is this part of God's plan for mankind? NO? -- we know that is not the case, that is not proper reasoning. But why not? There are some very clear texts supporting slavery to submit to/ obey their masters.

But in order to realize it's true that God does not contradict Himself, we need to see how He deals with people trapped in certain cultures. In the ancient world outside of Israel, slaves had no rights. God does not force culture to change. God works to change the culture by first changing people to have the right attitude in spite of any good or evil circumstances. From there He, thus ultimately lead them into His original pln.

You must be desperate to "win" this discussion. Seems to me you're now equating the issues of slavery and women's ordination. You're basically saying that the most degrading human practice of all time is the equivalent of not ordaining women. All I can do with that is roll my eyes.

So if slavery is the most degrading human practice of all time, why did God allow it, even give counsel as to how to do it.
And no, I'm not desperate for ordination at all. But I do find the arguments you have given have gone far beyond ordination, as some kind of proof that women must be kept under rule. I find that to be a very degrading interpretation of the Bible's view of women.
I'm not really so much for ordination as I am against the interpretation of scripture that some people use to push women down pretty much to "slavery" position.

Genesis 3:16

How is it understood. Is it a license to have authoritarian control over one's partner or is it a sad statement of how sin will operate?

Is it saying, women will desire to be loved by their husbands, but instead husbands will act as authoritarians and rule over them?

Or are we to accept this distorted view we see in some OLD commentaries that claims: Women are not to be allowed to follow their own desires, their husbands must rule over them and tell them what they can and can't do?
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Yet the first is the reality we see fulfilled as the sad state of women all over the world throughout history have suffered as men have implemented their faulty interpretation.


That's why Paul tells women -- yes, respect your husbands leadership. But he then goes into a lengthy appeal to husbands to love their wives and treat them as they themselves would want to be treated.

But guess what? So many ignored that part of much larger part of Paul's message and only thundered the "submit" part over their wives. That's why we have women's lib -- it's not what God planned either. His plan was for love and respect on both sides, neither is to use authoritarian power over the other.