quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
But when I attempted to answer this question you trashed it?

---

Hi Mike,

Just a point of clarification. I am not trashing you position at all. But rather disagreeing with your statements. As a rational thinking being, I have the ability to do that, that is "disagree". And as a leader in this Sda-Today forum here, I have a moral obligation to God and fellow readers to point out what I see as Theological misgivings. I will be doing that here in this forum on a regular bases. There may even be times when I have to decide to edit a post or move it out (although that is not my desire or wish to have to do that ever). It is not meant to be mean, nor arbitrary, but rather protective and responsible. I am sorry if we won't always see things from the same viewpoint. That happens, and it is "OK". I still respect your right to have a different point of view, but please respect mine to protect the material shared here. I believe when I set a topic like this up God to a point holds me accountable by how it impacts people.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Seems to me anybody can sit down and write a book that claims to be the sole authority on God. But does that make it so? Look at all the books that are like that - the Bible is just one of many. Who are we to say our Bible is the only right one? Does our saying it make it true?

---

That is a valid point Mike, One perhaps I will make a future topic here at some point. I hope you re-visit it with us then.
Just saying the Bible is true to a new Believe or seeker does not make it so to them. And "we" too often make that mistake. We need not only be a Student of the WORD but also a DEFENDER of the WORD. We must know it's history, how it came about, how the books were selected, why they are inspired, how the bible proves it's self. How science and history unfolding even today as we speak more and more proves the bible to be correct! How Prophecy have been 100% on the mark Thousands of years before it happened, and so forth and so forth.

Personally, I think the first place to start with a New believer or Seeker is not to hit them hard with the Bible, but rather give them a PERSONAL and heartfelt testimony of WHO GOD is to you. How JESUS has impacted your life, how He has changed you. What He Means to you, How He Loves you! When we LIFT JESUS UP all men will be drawn on to HIM. From this kind of testimony when can send people to the scriptures who are inspired to seek them and not being pried or pushed or beaten over the head with them. And there is indeed a difference.

Thank you for your thoughts Mike I hope this has helped you, as much as it has me, to write it.

Every Blessing from GOD to you!

------------------
~VINCE~ IN ~CHRIST~
SDA-TODAY moderator

This restless world is just illusion
All at once, there’s a message from above
This senseless world of mass confusion ....
In the name of love
There’s a message from above ... (Sammy Hagar 2000)

Who is God?

My father in heaven who I'm not worthy of His love.
He is the only one I can turn to in times of trouble. He knows before I speak.
When I'm sad or in trouble or pain I look up to heaven and feel strength for I know He is there watching on me.

God is the creator who made everything worth making & in due time He made me & you. I can only know as much as He reveals & according to how much I can understand.

When I was little I tried to describe what my Dad did at the lodge he went to. I was only five so I had to adlib a lot. I felt alot at a loss to really understand. So until God reveals information about Himself a lot of us have to adlib a lot ourselves.

We are little kids trying to understand the ultimate grownup. He probably does not say alot about personal details about Himself for good reasons.

we need to growup in His teachings & go home with Him and then let Him personally explain things ,as He sees we would benefit from the explanations.

------------------
Edward F Sutton

quote:

---

Originally posted by raintinkle:
Who is God?

My father in heaven who I'm not worthy of His love.
He is the only one I can turn to in times of trouble. He knows before I speak.
When I'm sad or in trouble or pain I look up to heaven and feel strength for I know He is there watching on me.

---

I really liked this. It was short, but right to the point! Thank you for sharing!

------------------
~VINCE~ IN ~CHRIST~
SDA-TODAY moderator

This restless world is just illusion
All at once, there’s a message from above
This senseless world of mass confusion ....
In the name of love
There’s a message from above ... (Sammy Hagar 2000)

I'm back. Was away on expedition. Spent a month on Mt. McKinley in Alaska with 9 other guys from all around the USA. I was the only believer. At best they tolerated my praising God. I didn't preach at them, and in time they came to appreciate my positive outlook.

Toward the end of the expedition things got pretty bad. The weather threatened to hurt alot of people. Indeed, several people had to be medically flown off the mountain. It made national news.

I prayed to God and asked a sign - if you want to show your self in a big way on this mountain impress someone to ask me to pray about it. About an hour later one of the guides came to me and asked me to speak to God about the weather. He said it was our only hope.

I prayed 7 times, like Elijah, and God chose not to change the weather. More people got hurt. The guide said later on - Guess the storm was too big for God. It left me speechless, and without a defense.

Who is God? To that guide God is smaller than a storm. Why didn't God chose to manifest His power and praise that day? I don't know. From my point of view, God blew it. But in my heart I know He did the right thing. However, I can't understand it just now. Some day it will make sense, perhaps not until I'm in heaven watching the rerun.

After that incident nobody was impressed with my God. They thought it was cute that I believe in the Bible God, but they are far from being impressed with Him. None of those stories about how Jesus calmed the wind tossed waves on Galilee had effect. Miracles and prophecies made no difference. Even my peace of mind was no better than the calm and patience the non-believers demonstrated during the good and bad times on the mountain. There was nothing that I could say or do that might have made a difference for the kingdom of heaven.

Was I frustrated? You bet. What would you have done?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Was I frustrated? You bet. What would you have done?

---

Welcome back Mike. Sounds like you had a faith testing experience while you were gone.

I don't know if I would of handled it and different, our job is to be faithful in our dealings and representation of God regardless of How God choices to display Himself.

He is all knowing. We don't know how that experience will affect those people at later dates, in future storms, or in other places in their lives. It may or may not of been that God did not want them to belive in Him on the bases of a weather change that could be rationalized away later. Perhaps He has a more GREAT turning place in there lives.

My Point is we don't know, He does, Our Job is to be faithful. If God answers me or not I go on believing, And from what I can see that is what you have done.

Thanx. It's good to be back. Yeah, that was a faith testing ordeal for me. I wanted God to shine big time that day, but it wasn't His will to change the weather. But my point is - Who is God? To me He's the kind hearted Father of the Bible, who has killed alot of people over the years. Strange, huh?

A long time ago He used to do pretty spectacular things to get people's attention. In some cases it worked, and in others it didn't. The still small voice worked at times, and at other times He had to shake and shout.

I gotta wonder - why doesn't God select a place on earth where He can set up a camp for angels to heal people and do all kinds of amazing things to prove He's real and cares about people. Why does He have to resort to invisibility all the time, or at least most of the time? What would be wrong with a city of refuge where God can work out in the open through the angels, and nobody has to doubt whether it's real or not?

I'm not so sure this invisible thing is the best way to do things. And I don't completely buy the idea that we might love God for the wrong reasons if we could see His agencies face to face. That's not how it works for me and my family here on earth. Why would I love God less if I had visible proof of His existence? John said his hands handled the Lord and he believes. Why should we get less? Jesus is asking an awful lot when He expects people who have never heard of Him to believe in Him when they can't see Him.

Do you see my point?

I don't believe God initiates all bad stuff, and the weather that day was like weather everywhere.
Whose honour were you really thinking about, Mike? If God knows best, where did the frustration come from? I often have to ask welfare workers whose pain are they trying to ease - their own, or the client's. The best, and most influential example of Christianity in action is when a man declares and demonstrates faith and trust in God during the bad times. Unbelievers will say of the martyrs that their God wasn't sufficient to save them. But spiritual things are spiritually discerned. What impresses people is the conviction of the Holy Spirit, as they see your composure, and they are led to desire to have what you have. (I have worked with a client who was convicted of a dreadful crime, and who said to me of his in-laws, who were Adventists, and who forgave him for the terrible trauma he had caused, that he wanted what they had. I was really moved by that.)
I believe rice christians would give God a bad name, and cause confusion.
Jesus' own words were that if they believed not Moses and the prophets, they wouldn't believe even if the dead were raised to life. And it's because this approach doesn't work - in most cases - that God's work is hindered. Unbelievers don't understand that no-one in the universe will ever have the stomach to invite sin in any form again, once the mess here is sorted out. And God in His mercy allows the outworking of sin, and gives those who ask, the strength to endure. If you're uncomfortable, how must the source of all love feel?
I suspect God used you that day as His hands, to help others. The still, small work is like the still, small voice. And it is more effective than a magic show. (No disrespect intended.)
Zyph.

Where did my frustration come from? Hopefully from the Spirit. I'm comfortable with the frustration I experienced that day. It didn't cause me to misrepresent my Lord, nor did it lead me astray. I'm okay with coming to God to reason things out with Him. And even if I don't get satisfactory answers in this lifetime, that's okay. Do you know what I mean?

I have a whole list of unanswered questions that are waiting on the back burner until I get to heaven. And I'm okay with that. And some of them are sources of frustration at times. Like why did God allow all those discrepancies in the Bible? Why did He allow my daughter to sleep so early in life? Why isn't He more visible at times? Etc.

And miracles? If we can so easily explain why God doesn't work many miracles today, how do we explain why Jesus performed so many during His time? Especially in light of what He said in John 10:38 - If you don't believe my words, at least believe my works.

Can we really say God does like to have to resort to miralces to stimulate people to love Him? That seems like a cop out to me. Isn't there a better answer? Like maybe no answer? Isn't that part of who God is? I mean, what we don't know about God is also who He is. Am I making sense?

I think there would definitely be a lot more miracles amongst believers these days if people walked with God as they are privileged to. And of course these miracles would outflow to others. But they would be in the context of total commitment to God's will. Jesus demonstrated the overwhelming love of the Father for us when He couldn't resist doing good for everyone around Him. But it wasn't always possible to help everyone. The miracle at the pool at Bethesda was for one man among many sufferers. We know circumstances dictated that Jesus couldn't always help. I believe things will actually change during the latter rain, when individuals experience a revival, and God is able to work in and through them, in a way He can't at present. I think the dominance of a cynical society has changed the way people regard miraculous events, and God can't always do the things He would like to. Answers to specific situations aren't always easy to come by, though, are they? At least if you are close to God (or have been close to Him in the past - my situation), you know He is absolutely trustworthy, and the miracle of changed lives is one thing He has always been able to do visibly.
Zyph.