I believe God hears sincere prayers whether offered once or many times. The repetition doesn't change God's mind. He hears us the first time. I cannot imagine God standing up there with His arms crossed across His unwilling chest until I finally irritate Him enough to grant my petition.

Whatever repetition is supposed to accomplish in the scheme of things I'm certain it has nothing to with God's willingness to do what's best and right.

The idea that God cannot do something or that He has His hands tied until I or some other human prays is ridiculuos to me. Whatever is meant by that idea cannot be made to say God is helpless to save one of His dear children if I fail to pray. God has more than one way to save His people should I fail to pray.

What do you think?

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
If I'm to understand those texts to mean that God expects me to beg and grovel before He'll stoop to hear my prayer then we're not getting the same thing out of those passages.

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The Texts mean 100% what they say, I didn't write them. But I can read them. It is the word of the Living God. "Thus says the Lord" is not ours to rationalize (I am not saying your doing that). The Word of God is What it says. It is that simple.

However the Texts above do not say you have to beg nor grovel for God to hear you. Perhaps ( I don't know) that is what your reading in to them. But they do say "yet because of his persistence he will rise and give him as many as he needs" and "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. " And we can't change that fact.

The way it has worked in my life is, God won't Cross my free will. I have to really in my heart want something. Many times I ask people and God for things My heart does not really want. I ask from guilt or because it "seems" like the right thing to ask for. God knows our heart. Sometimes in the prayer closet, over time, I relate to Jacob's Wrestle and it is amidst that struggle God really shows me the desire of my heart and how to fix that in Him. Again in my life, and I assume others, I know God hears me and is ready to answer my first prayer, still more often then not I am not ready to receive, so He works with me as I seek, ask, knock and look for His will.

I hope that helps.

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~VINCE~ IN ~CHRIST~
SDA-TODAY moderator

This restless world is just illusion
All at once, there’s a message from above
This senseless world of mass confusion ....
In the name of love
There’s a message from above ... (Sammy Hagar 2000)

Even what you said about the Bible leaves very little room for discussion. But is the Bible really all that black and white? Isn't it possible for a passage to mean more than just one thing? And yet all those things be truth? Personally I try not to corner a passage into one meaning, but rather I try to keep an open mind and learn as much from it as I possibly can. Is that what you do?

On the matter of importunate praying. Whatever repetitious prayers are supposed to accomplish I'm certain it has nothing to with God's willingness to do what's best and right. As I see it He is always able to do what is good. Is that too far off base?

The idea that God cannot do something or that He has His hands tied until I or some other human prays is ridiculuos to me. Whatever is meant by that idea cannot be made to say God is helpless to save one of His dear children if I fail to pray. God has more than one way to save His people should I fail to pray.

What do you think?

Not all of this is on topic at all. But I will respond to it here because I feel it is ok. In future for personal correspondence I can be reached at SDA-TODAY@nc.rr.com

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Thank you for those thoughts. Am I getting the wrong idea here or do you feel it's your job to educate me?

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Nope not at all. In fact your thoughts have gave me occasion to back up my beliefs on the subject.

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Sometimes I feel like you're teaching me rather than carrying on a discussion.

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This is hard to respond to, because I can"t change how you feel.

I am open to be taught by anyone who teaches truth, that is why I am here, I hope that is the case for all. I know my faith is made more strong in these forums

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Alot of what you write comes across very authoritative and less conversational. Do you know what I mean?

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YES, I do know what you mean. I am an expressive and passionate person. I notice those same qualities in you too. It is because we both seek, that we report our findings with such passion. I don't mean to step one anybodies fingers, but the study of God excites me, And the love and understanding He shows me makes me want express it.

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Even what you said about the Bible leaves very little room for discussion. But is the Bible really all that black and white? Isn't it possible for a passage to mean more than just one thing?
And yet all those things be truth?

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I agree in full. As we study together more you will see, I believe there can be more then one meaning to a text. However my point was we can't through out what a text clearly says either.

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Personally I try not to corner a passage into one meaning, but rather I try to keep an open mind and learn as much from it as I possibly can. Is that what you do?

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Yes. But I never deny the clear meaning of a text either (I am not implying you do that just putting my answer in context).

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
On the matter of importunate praying. Whatever repetitious prayers are supposed to accomplish I'm certain it has nothing to with God's willingness to do what's best and right. As I see it He is always able to do what is good. Is that too far off base?

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Not at all.

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
The idea that God cannot do something or that He has His hands tied until I or some other human prays is ridiculuos to me. Whatever is meant by that idea cannot be made to say God is helpless to save one of His dear children if I fail to pray. God has more than one way to save His people should I fail to pray.
What do you think?

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That is not what I think or am suggesting. I hope I am not misunderstood. All I am saying is consider the free will issue and that Often we are not ready for what we ask as we continue to seek God shows us that. That is all part of the seeking process I had found in my life.

Again, as I said here before some place, we are not going to always agree here. That is ok, we don't need to feel as if we have to make the other person accept what we are saying. Learning from each other Starts with tolerance and respecting each other. People will come to this forum from all over the Globe, with all kinds of experiences and backgrounds it may take a while to get to see where we are all coming from.

As for myself I can say, I know I am expressive and full of passion for the Lord, and that spills out rather boldly at times. When I believe something with all my heart seek to "PROVE ALL THINGS".

When I post something here that disagrees with anybody else, it is not personal. I am only reporting what my findings are.You don't have too accept them, and they are not in opposition to anything others write they are expressions of my beliefs and how they may differ.

Bottom line: Your input has provided thought inspiring discussion, even if we don't always see eye to eye.

Thanks!
Vince

I believe in intercessory prayer, but I certainly don't understand everything about it. In fact, I understand very little about it, except for that it works. And for now that's good enough for me. For reasons that may never make sense to me this side of gloryland I recognize that there is virtue in importunate praying. And so I pray...

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike Lowe:

I believe in intercessory prayer, but I certainly don't understand everything about it. In fact, I understand very little about it, except for that it works. And for now that's good enough for me.

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Well Put! May God guide us into deeper understanding when it is his will to do so...

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~VINCE~ IN ~CHRIST~
SDA-TODAY moderator

The Spirit is constantly seeking to draw the attention of men to the great offering that was made on the cross of Calvary, to unfold to the world the love of God, and to open to the convicted soul the precious things of the Scriptures. {AA 52.4}

I read a story once, that seems to be on track with this discussion.
It involved a man that was prayed for for over 50 years, and with no apparent success.

One day as his wife was preparing supper, he fell asleep in his chair, later his wife heard him sobbing in the living room.

going in, she found him on his knees by his chair, tears flowing like water over a waterfall.
After he had calmed down, she asked him what was wrong, he told her of a dream he had just had..

I was sitting in my chair, watching the ball game, when Jesus walked through the door.
He stood there for a few seconds, with a look of pity that drove me to the depths of despair.
He slowly shook his head and said top me," My son, my sonm, what am I going to do with you?"
Not understanding, I asked Him what He meant, He told me that He was concerned about where my life was going, and that it would one day be over, and He was wondering what He was going to do about all the prayers that had been said for me.
He asked me if I hadn't heard Him calling to me all these years, I told Him yes.
He asked why I hadn't answered, I had no answer.
Then He told me how it would break His heart if I wasn't with Him for eternity, and asked me what I was going to do about it.

At this point his wife asked just exactly what he was going to do?

To make a long story a little shorter, he told her he didn't know and she offered to help.
He did come around.

By interceeding on anothers behalf, we open the door sogod can go in, as He will never force His way in.
It makes it legal for Him to enter the life of another as He has been invited.
He will never force the will of the one prayed for, but He can woo them and draw them.

We have the privilege of being a part of this.

Isn't it great?

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Examine me, O LORD, and prove me: try my reins and my heart. Ps.26:2
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in men.Ps.118:8