I just wanted to say the site that Linda originally posted is excellent. There is much in there that is valuable for overcoming ANY sin, and I got a lot out of reading it. I felt a little confused about his illustration of when his son refused the gift of the doll. He said even though his son refused it, he went on loving him, then parallelled this with a man who refuses the gift of a life with a woman. I thought the bible says we are better off if we remain single. And I have a problem with the implication that there is a heterosexual partner provided by God specially for each person.

Are desires part of conversion or not ?

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

To be tempted is not sin, but to enter into temptation is sin. Is conversion and experience that leaves you remaining to desire or lust after the sins that were once enjoyed ?

I believe that conversion is not such an experience. I grew up in intense sexual transgression (no details given) so it is not a theoretical topic for me.

Conversion is progressive and does not give "holy flesh". As much as you are daily willing to enter into and can endure and seek after with your whole heart - that conversion does within you.

The natural tendencies and the spiritual / mental experience are two warring powers. What your mind enjoys depends on which power is ruling within. I did not say tempted, I said enjoys. Satan will tempt as often as allowed to.

That does not mean a person enjoys the sudden intrusion of thoughts, feelings, wharever. If spiritually trained in the Scriptures they view this sudden intrusion as an unwelcome intruder and call on God, and claim Scripture, divert their mind and circumstances if possible .

If a person is half hearted about seeking God and staying connected with God, they will when disconnected finally realize they enjoy thinking about sin. It is God operating through the connection of whole hearted seeking Him, that implants continual emnity against sin and especially formerly favorite sins. Without the spiritual connectedness the sins return to being present favorite sins and are no longer former favorite sins.

Conversion is not feeling monentarally at emnity against my favorite sins because I am not tempted. Conversion shows it's self when I am so changed as to hate those once cherished things even though severely tempted. Tempted not because I desire them, but tempted because they are being used as weapons against me by Satan.

With conversion I enter the experience of hateing what God hates and loving what He loves within the limits of my sphere of existence and experience. In the process of the conversion of my mind, I am expected to cooperate to the fullest extent I can each day. The whole hartedness or halfheartedness of my seeking God determines the results in God's timetable.

The conversion of my flesh into smoke or eternal life will be rapid and beyond my choice then at that moment. My choices now in this life of opportunity deside for smoke or eternal life. i will not reveive the Latter Rain with an impure mind nor be translated seeking or desiring my favorite sins.

I am assuming you have Bible & SOP search engines to use.

Case in point - Why was Esau rejected, why was his repentance no good in God's sight ? What was going on inside Esau that God rejected ?

Hebrews 12:

1 ¶ Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4 ¶ Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

S.K. Pipim in his book "Must We Be Silent" talks about the Biblical ramifications of desiring sins and what the Bible says about it. I will relocate the book and post the Biblical research soon I hope.

I not too long ago looked up "Time of Trouble" and found that during that time those who utterly hate sin get all their sympathies removed from this world and it's ways by the agonizing temptations and experiences they go through.

So it makes me consider that when you still desire a sin you are drawing closer to the tempter when you move toward it mentally and finally act on it. When you are revolted, disgusted, totally turned off by a sin and get tempted by it's intrusion in your life by whatever means, you pull further away from the tempter and sympathies toward the old life.

Why don't I seek out or daydream about ham & porkchops any more after all I am still fat enough to look the part ?

Because I hate the very concept of touching, eating, or being around such. In other words I have given that to Jesus and do not cherish it at all. When I first became informed from the Bible I couldn't say that. but faith was more important than tummy. Once I became SDA that process was well under way.

Perhaps the value we a humans place upon various gratifications through sin, is why some sins more easily beset us.

Perhaps as we place an absolute value upon Jesus eclipsing everything else, we will get corresponding spiritual results.

Conversion does not promised an unbroken unmaimed body in this life, but it creates an unpolluted mind after sufficent time of wholehearted seeking.

The state of the spiritual reality within depending upon God to work through the connection to Him. He knows our individual capacities and when we are whole hearted and half hearted with him.

I don't think you were genetically predisposed to eating pork chops, Ed. You have missed the point of what I'm saying. That might be because you believe homosexual desire is strictly by choice. Some homosexual behaviour is definitely by choice, and I believe that is the kind that is changeable as the character changes. No amount of walking with God will replace a severed leg, regardless of the sincerity of the relationship with Him, UNLESS He performs a specific miracle to that effect. If someone is born with an extra chromosome, conversion doesn't delete that chromosome.

Now, what IF some homosexuals were genetically affected by hrmonal imbalances while they were in their mothers' wombs? And what if this led them to a physical predisposition to desire people of their own sex? Is God going to grow a new endocrine system within them? Or is He simply going to empower them to live with their physical disability?

Of course lustful thoughts are overcome as we walk with the Lord - but let's be real here. Our bodies are not made new until after Christ returns, and we still have propensities to sin. I need to talk on a personal level to get my point across now. I've been told by men that they respond sexually to visual stimulus in a way that women don't. It isn't sin if something happens accidentally that sets off the process in a man. It's what he does with the situation, isn't it? If a homosexual man says he was born that way, and that his desires are triggered by other males, is it sin for him to experience sexual arousal accidentally? Isn't it also what he does with the situation that counts? And if he lives alone, and no longer walks after the flesh, yet his sexual wiring is set in a certain way, in what way has he sinned?

It gets down to what you believe about homosexuality, the causes, and related prejudices. Science has shown many scenarios which are common during the pregnancies that produce certain sexual deformities. Most scientists are inclined to believe there is a physiological basis for homosexuality. (And I'm referring here to what I deem "true" homosexuality - where the thought of having normal heterosexual sex is repulsive, and always has been, and where there is nothing environmental to blame)

But even if we don't know, as long as someone is living a godly life, have we the right to judge them on the way they say they are? I know a few heterosexuals in the church that have behaved in an atrocious manner, but no-one reacted as strongly to their sexual sins because they were those that are common to us.

I'm glad you abstain from unclean foods, Ed. I've seen some vegetarians who were every bit as lustful with food as any worldly person. And gluttons were stoned to death in the old testament, weren't they? I mention this because you use food as an illustration. But I've never heard a churchgoer reprimanded for what God deems such a serious sin, while demands for total change - even on a cellular level - seem to be the norm when the sin is homosexuality.

Most discussions actually are debates. Debates solve nothing as their usual rule. Since sexual preferences are deeply tied to individual human perceived identity.

In the context of human identity: instead of debate we join forces and both begin to research from Bible & SOP a compendium of these things from Scripture & SOP. Here is why I am going in that direction.

Human opinions of any sort do not carry power unless they are built upon some platform of intrinsic power. We can not change our fallen human natures. We do not possess that intrinsic power. No matter my opinion whether good or bad, since I can not even change myself, I can not change others.

There are two intrinsic powers in this world. God and Satan. God is original and perfect. Satan is derived, warped, and imperfect. SOP says that sexual lasciviousness in any form is a species of witchcraft. {See AH 329.3- 331.1}& {5T 137.4-148.1 Chap. 13 - Agents of Satan} Actual worship of Satan under a different form than is generally perceived to be such. I have both in my background, I am motivated for more than casual research in this matter. Debate & discussion by their nature can not satisfy the needs of my own soul . Could not be used to help others. But a workbook built after God’s order would help.

The Hymn “It is no Secret” (Hope I have the name right) is very true.

It is No Secret

What God Can Do

What He's Done for Others

He Can Do For You

The chimes of time ring out the news,
Another day is through.
Someone slipped and fell.
Was that someone you?

You may have longed for added strength,
Your courage to renew.
Do not be disheartened,
For I have news for you.

It is no secret what God can do.
What He's done for others, He'll do for you.
With arms wide open, He'll pardon you.
It is no secret what God can do.

There is no night for in His light
You never walk alone.
Always feel at home,
Wherever you may go.

There is no power can conquer you
While God is on your side.
Take Him at His promise,
Don't run away and hide.

It is no secret what God can do.
What He's done for others, He'll do for you.
With arms wide open, He'll pardon you.
It is no secret what God can do.

Therefore joining together as allies in a search for the source of restoration and path of restoration and tools of restoration in a very broken human society, I propose this.

In the context of human identity: instead of debate we join forces and both begin to research from Bible & SOP a compendium of these things from Scripture & SOP. Here is why I am going in that direction.

Instead how about looking for God's
1. Declarations(Bible Texts & Passages & SOP)*
2. Warnings (Bible Texts & Passages & SOP)*
3. Promises (Bible Texts & Passages & SOP)*
4. Explanations how the rebuilt human mind works*
5. Explanations how the carnal human mind works *
6. Declarations what God is to do*
7. Declarations what mankind is to do*
8. God's tools for mankind to use*
9. God's rules for using those tools, wherein He* will bless mankind with successfully achieving what He declares He requires mankind to do.
10. Human identity in God's hands how malleable is it ? *
11. For this research project that puts God's Word to the ideological test RE: all forms human identity problems (especially all types of sexual rebellion against Him.) Let us use Victor J. Adamson's book it's self as a template for the directions of thought & research. I have a copy, do you have a copy ?

Who knows it might make an interesting book in and of it's self.

Consider: When God changes your preferences to something else - no matter what they were - you are now happy with your new preferences - and no longer bound to your old preferences.

But here is the key question is it an intrinsic physical change in the brain that blots out the old ?

Or is this change an over riding new change that has to be maintained by God in that person?

A change who's continuity depends upon the person staying connected to God voluntarily to access this change that God is maintaining, allowing God over time to reformat the person's mind with the person's cooperation.

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Edward F Sutton ]

BTW the name of the book is , "That Kind Can Never Change!"

I would have edited the last post, but some kind of indwelling code changes some of the words to numbers with 's after them . I'll have to alert Daryl he has power to change the system format to a new paridium and correct the problem.