Edward, thank you for those quotes. I thought you made it clear that you do not believe that earth is the outer court, but did you say what is?

Greg, welcome aboard. It's always nice when new people join the study. And thank you for those insightful comments regarding the special services associated with the various stages of Jesus' ministry.

AB, I agree with your thoughts on Rev 13:8. The text is so plain I don't see how we can take it to mean anything else. Just because we can't understand it doesn't mean we should spiritualize it to say something it doesn't.

Yes, Jesus didn't die on the cross until AD 31. And yes, the Bible is full of passages that confirm this wonderful truth. And Greg makes a good point concerning his credit card analogy. But does that mean we should force Rev 13:8 to agree with this truth?

What if Rev 13:8 is supposed to teach us another truth? Can we read this passage exactly the way it is written? Is it impossible for this text to be true about God? Or is it possible there are things about God that we don't understand?

The idea that Jesus waited until AD 31 to anoint the HP and MHP just doesn't make sense to me. The earthly sanctuaries were dedicated in one all encompassing ceremony. Why not the heavenly sanctuary too? If so, then Jesus would have first entered the outer court to pay the penalty for our sins, then He would have entered the HP to perform the daily duties, and then He would have entered the MHP on the day antonement to perform the investigative judgment. And isn't that what happened?

Please answer the following questions:

1. If earth isn't the outer court, then what is? and where is it?

2. If earth isn't the outer court, then why did Jesus experience death and resurrection (outer court duties) here?

3. Why didin't Jesus anoint and dedicate the entire sanctuary when Adam and Eve sinned?

4. If it was possible for Jesus to wait until AD 31 to anoint the MHP, then why didn't He just wait until 1844 instead?

[ December 10, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Posted by Mike:

In 1844 when Jesus entered the MHP the HP was given to the unbelieving Christians, who did not follow Him into the MHP, to trod under foot, led by Satan. See EW 56, 92 and 261. So, from a future application point of view the "court" may refer to the HP.

But if the outer "court" in Rev 11:2 was trodden under foot by the Gentiles during the 1,260 years of papal persecution, then wold it be safe to say that earth is the outer court?
******************************

Mike: Rev.11:2 leaves absolutely no doubt as to the earth being the outer court. There was never a time when the Holy Place could be the outer court! How could the innermost parts of the Sanctuary represent the earth?

[ December 10, 2001: Message edited by: adventbeliever ]

AB, I agree with you that the "court" mentioned in Rev 11:2 symbolizes the earth. But if a future application of this passage is valid, then it may make sense to suggest that the "court" that was left out in 1844 symbolizes the HP. Not that the HP is on earth, but that it was figuratively given to the people who did not by faith follow Jesus into the MHP in 1844.

Do you understand my point? It's somewhat based on EW 56, 92 and 261 where Ellen White describes what became of the HP and the unbelieving when Jesus relocated to the MHP.

Mike:
I to like the Early Writings concepts. The Bible conveys that we have access to heaven, and the activities in heaven, by faith. It even conveys that we are in heaven even though we are still physically here on earth. Obviously Satan and sinners can not take over the physcial holy place for it is physically in heaven but as each phase of the sanctuary is completed then that area is of no more use to God for that phase is completed. The most important place in the heavenly sanctuary now is the MHP. However, it to is soon to end. I think many people are confused today, in the SDA church because the sanctuary service is not taught nor understood by our people. If our people do not grasp the significance of the MHP and the soon movements out of the MHP then they will miss the close of probation and be lost. They will be just like the people were lost by not going up Noahs ramp before the last 7 days of life before the flood.

It is true that the sanctuary service was to be anointed in one smooth process. However, Jesus Himself was not anointed until 27AD. Even though the benefits of the sanctuary were in existence before Jesus was anointed yet the process of the sanctuary service was a "shadow" of how the heavenly sanctuary work was to be accomplished. Our job is to keep studying and allow the Holy Spirit to lead us step by step in our understandings.

Greg, thank you for hanging in there with this study. I really appreciate your comments. And like you, I too see a vital connection between understanding the truth about the sanctuary and being ready for the close of human probation.

Ellen White wrote - "The subject of the sanctuary and the investigative judgment should be clearly understood by the people of God. All need a knowledge for themselves of the position and work of their great High Priest. Otherwise it will be impossible for them to exercise the faith which is essential at this time or to occupy the position which God designs them to fill." {GC 488.2}

I also agree that from our human perspective Jesus was anointed by John the Baptist in the Jordan river in AD 27, and that this act fulfills the prophecy in Daniel 9:24-27. However, I wonder if Jesus wasn't also anointed by the Father when Adam and Eve sinned?

"From this time four hundred and eighty-three years extend to the autumn of A. D. 27. According to the prophecy, this period was to reach to the Messiah, the Anointed One. In A. D. 27, Jesus at His baptism received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, and soon afterward began His ministry. Then the message was proclaimed. "The time is fulfilled." {DA 233.1}

"Angels are God's ministers, radiant with the light ever flowing from His presence and speeding on rapid wing to execute His will. But the Son, the anointed of God, the "express image of His person," "the brightness of His glory," "upholding all things by the word of His power," holds supremacy over them all. Hebrews 1:3. "A glorious high throne from the beginning," was the place of His sanctuary (Jeremiah 17:12); "a scepter of righteousness," the scepter of His kingdom. Hebrews 1:8. "Honor and majesty are before Him: strength and beauty are in His sanctuary." Psalm 96:6. Mercy and truth go before His face. Psalm 89:14." {PP 34.2}

"Before the Father He pleaded in the sinner's behalf, while the host of heaven awaited the result with an intensity of interest that words cannot express. Long continued was that mysterious communing--"the counsel of peace" (Zechariah 6:13) for the fallen sons of men. The plan of salvation had been laid before the creation of the earth; for Christ is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8); yet it was a struggle, even with the King of the universe, to yield up His Son to die for the guilty race. But "God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. Oh, the mystery of redemption! the love of God for a world that did not love Him! Who can know the depths of that love which "passeth knowledge"? Through endless ages immortal minds, seeking to comprehend the mystery of that incomprehensible love, will wonder and adore. {PP 63.3}

"Christ could say, "I seek not Mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent Me." John 5:30. To Him it is declared, "Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even Thy God, hath anointed Thee with the oil of gladness above Thy fellows." Heb. 1:9. The Father "giveth not the Spirit by measure unto Him." {DA 180.1}

"For of a truth against Thy Holy Child Jesus, whom Thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, for to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy counsel determined before to be done." {AA 67.2}

"The disciples bore the message, and it was enough. John recalled the prophecy concerning the Messiah, "The Lord hath anointed Me to preach good tidings unto the meek; He hath sent Me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord." Isa. 61:1, 2." {DA 217.2}

I don't see a problem with the concept of anointed before 27 AD. However we need to be careful not to undermine the concept. There is also another line of reasoning that is interesting. In Hebrews 7:9-10 Levi is discribed as paying tithes while still in the loins of Abraham. Apparently in the eyes of God the fact that He knows something is true allows Him to apply the truth both in the future and in the past. So the fact of Jesus being literally anointed in 27 AD would allow God to refer to Jesus as the Anointed One at anytime in history.

Greg:
I really did enjoy the two posts of yours I read on here. I have wondered about this subject, and all you said seemed very clear. It is so true that we are not hearing studies about the sanctuary as we should. I really appreciate that this thread was started. These are beautiful studies.

Mike, was it you who first put this on? I have forgotten, but, I have also read some interesting, thought provoking statements in your posts. I thank you both and others on here for bringing this out, and encouraging us all to study more.

In Christ's Love,

Dora

Mike

I will use the "kitty cat icon," so that you can see I am harmless... Who's cat is that anyway? it sure is cute!

let me try to explain better where I am coming from when I ask you questions re Rev.13:8.

You mentioned in another post, when I asked you for Bible texts to show what you were saying about jesus dying from the foundation of the world, that you were going mostly by common sense and logical deductions.

This is a principle of Bible study that I don't understand as valid, if used alone.

When I look at the over all motif of the Bible's sanctuary doctrine; I see really, just two things.

I see a heavenly sanctuary, and I see an earthly sanctuary.

I see the earthly sanctuary called a type or example, or shadow, of the heavenly sanctuary.

And then, my question happens...

If the earthly is a type, or example, of the heavenly; then how can anything on earth, be in reality, a part of the heavenly?

Does the anti-type not cast a "shadow" of the "type.?"

Doesn't a "shadow" need to be casted by something? How could there be a "shadow" of something not there in heaven, but here on earth?

Do you see where I am coming from? How does this line of reasoning sound to you?

Greg, I agree with your insight concerning how the Father could refer to Jesus as the Anointed One based on something that would be a reality in future. In fact, that's the basis of my premise regarding Rev 13:8. Since God occupies eternity (Isa 57:15) whatever will be and whatever has been is an ongoing reality for God in the here and now and forever.

However, I also understand the need to be careful not to unravel one truth with another truth. And thank you for bringing that out. But does this derail what I've been suggesting about Rev 13:8? What do you think?

Dora, thank you for expressing your appreciation. It's good to have you aboard. Please feel free to share your questions and comments. That's how we learn from one another. Again, welcome.

David, I just love your kitty cat picture. Thank you for trying to soothe my sensitive soul. I'm sorry I bruise so easily. So, thank you for taking the time to share your objections, questions and comments in a gentle manner.

I also liked how you made a contrast between the earthly and heavenly sanctuaries. Truly the one is the shadow and the other is the substance. And it would be a mistake to blurr the line of distinction. However, I personally don't see a problem with saying earth is the outer court for the heavenly sanctuary, even though the shadow is also located here on earth.

Besides, isn't heaven everywhere? Yes, it's a place somewhere in outer space. But in the bigger scheme of things, isn't earth a part of heaven? It's at least a part of the heavenly common wealth, which no doubt includes all the unfallen worlds. If this thought means anything, then couldn't we also say that earth could be the outer court as well? I mean, it's here where Jesus chose to fulfill His outer court duties.

I realize it's highly unlikely that you'll ever change your mind on this point, and God forbid that I should even attempt to usurp the prerogatives of the Holy Spirit in that regard. But I ask these questions and make these points to justify my observations. Not that you require that of me, but I do expect it of myself. That's all.

Perhaps the outer court issue is causing us to overlook the original question posed for this thread? In what way does it help us discover the answer as to whether or not Jesus waited until AD 31 to anoint the MHP with the blood of His substitutionary sacrifice on the cross?

Wherever the outer court is, whether here on earth or somewhere else, did Jesus wait until AD 31 to anoint the MHP? or why didn't He wait until 1844? or better yet, why didn't He do it from the foundation of the world?

[ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

In answer to Mike's question, a thought just struck me.

How was the Earthly Sanctuary Anointed? Wasn't it by the literal blood of a sacrificial lamb? When did this take place? I don't know the exact year on this one.

Then how was the Heavenly Sanctuary anointed? Wasn't it also by the blood of the Sacrificial Lamb? When did this take place? In 31 AD.