BORN AGAIN------NEW BIRTH
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Ezekiel 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

When truth becomes an abiding principle in the life, the soul is "born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever." This new birth is the result of receiving Christ as the Word of God. When by the Holy Spirit divine truths are impressed upon the heart, new conceptions are awakened, and the energies hitherto dormant are aroused to co-operate with God. {AA 520.1}
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The very work that Christ declared necessary in the case of Nicodemus is the very work that needs to be done for those men who think that everything pertaining to religion must be done in a precise, methodical way. They need to be born again; and how the new birth is accomplished matters not, so long as the heart is renewed. When the prayer is sincerely offered, "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me," the voice of the Lord answers, "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments and do them." The renewed heart will have no plants of selfishness to cultivate. Pride will be seen in its sinfulness, and will be expelled. It is not for the human clay to find fault with the molding process of the potter, but to submit to be molded in any way. Every soul must submit to the Lord before he can be made a vessel unto honor, to be filled with the renewing, sanctifying grace of Christ. {RH, May 5, 1896 par. 5}
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The new birth is accomplished by the reception of the word of God; but those who belittle the word of God, those who cast contempt upon the law of Jehovah, place themselves under the banner of the prince of darkness. Satan began the work of rebellion in heaven by opposition to the constitution and government of God; and this is the manner of work he has carried on ever since the fall of man. Through the agency of evil men he seeks to make void the law of the Most High. "For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." Christ vindicated and honored the law of God, declaring that upon the principles of the Ten Commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Those who manifest disrespect for the law of Jehovah, make it evident that they have not been born again, and the truth does not abide in them. {ST, April 30, 1896 par. 2}
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The minds of many are clouded with unbelief because those who unite with the church as the chosen of God do not reveal the virtues that are the fruits of the Spirit. Joining the church is not a sure evidence that a man has joined himself to Christ. The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ. {12MR 51.1}
Thousands who claim to be religious are not Christians. Paul was very strict in carrying out his religion, but he was not a Christian until Christ revealed Himself to him and talked with him, showing him that he was persecuting his Master in the person of His saints. Then Paul was converted. He became one of the sect he had despised and hated; and for his love of Christ he received the same cruel treatment that he had once cooperated with others in giving. {12MR 51.2}
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In His interview with Nicodemus, an influential member of the Sanhedrin, Christ struck down deep to foundation principles. He said, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." The new birth is the beginning of a new life, a new shining forth of light because of a change in the character. The old life of selfishness has died, and the Christ-life is revealed. This is the first preparation essential for men and women who desire to be laborers together with God in medical missionary work. {17MR 359.2}
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"this is the new birth"-1 hit
"By looking constantly to Jesus, from morn till eve, with the eye of faith, we shall be strengthened. God will make the most precious revelations to His hungering, thirsting people. They will find that Christ is a personal Savior. They feed upon His word, for it is spirit and life. This word kills the natural, earthly nature, and a new life in Christ Jesus is created. The Holy Spirit comes as a Comforter to them. Love takes the place of hatred, and the heart receives the mold of the divine similitude. The image of Christ is reproduced in the human agent, and by the transforming efficacy of the grace of Christ he becomes a new creature. "As many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12,13). This is the new birth. {10MR 166.1}
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"until the grace of Christ" - 5 or 6 hits
"Those who would work in God's service must not be seeking worldly gratification and selfish indulgence. The physicians in our institutions must be imbued with the living principles of health reform. Men will never be truly temperate until the grace of Christ is an abiding principle in the heart. All the pledges in the world will not make you or your wife health reformers. No mere restriction of your diet will cure your diseased appetite. Brother and Sister ----- will not practice temperance in all things until their hearts are transformed by the grace of God. {CD 35.2}
Circumstances cannot work reforms. Christianity proposes a reformation in the heart. What Christ works within, will be worked out under the dictation of a converted intellect. The plan of beginning outside and trying to work inward has always failed, and always will fail. God's plan with you is to begin at the very seat of all difficulties, the heart, and then from out of the heart will issue the principles of righteousness; the reformation will be outward as well as inward. {CD 35.3}
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Those who would work in God's service must not be seeking worldly gratification and selfish indulgence. The physicians in our institutions must be imbued with the living principles of health reform. Men will never be truly temperate until the grace of Christ is an abiding principle in the heart. All the pledges in the world will not make you or your wife health reformers. No mere restriction of your diet will cure your diseased appetite. Brother and Sister Maxson will not practice temperance in all things until their hearts are transformed by the grace of God and they shall wear Christ's yoke and have Christ's meekness and lowliness of heart. {20MR 112.3}
Circumstances cannot work reforms. Christianity proposes a reformation in the heart. What Christ works within, will be worked out under the dictation of a converted intellect. The plan of beginning outside and trying to work inward has always failed, and always will fail. {20MR 112.4}
Standing as you do, my brother and sister, God's plan with you is to begin at the very seat of all difficulties, the heart, and then from out of the heart will issue the principles of righteousness; the reformation will be outward as well as inward. {20MR 112.5}
God's way is to give man something he has not. But you have said, I want it not. God's way is to make man something he is not. Man's way is to get an easy place, and indulge appetite and selfish ambition. God's plan is to set man to work in reformatory lines, then he will learn by experience how long he has pampered fleshly appetites, and ministered to his own temperament, bringing weakness upon himself. God's way is to work in power. He gives the grace if the sick man realizes that he needs it. Man is too often satisfied to treat himself according to the methods of quackery, and he vindicates his manner of working as right. God proposes to purify and refine the defiled soul; then He will implant in the heart His own righteousness and peace and health, and man becomes complete in Him. Then the issues of life, proceeding from the heart, are represented as a well of water, springing up into everlasting life. {20MR 112.6}
This is the kingdom of God within you. Day by day men are revealing whether the kingdom of God is within them. If Christ rules in their hearts, they are gaining strength of principle, power, ability to stand as faithful sentinels, true reformers; for there can be no reform unless there is thorough cooperation with Jesus Christ. {20MR 113.1}
Through the grace of Christ men are to use their God-given faculties to reform themselves. By this self-denying action, which the Lord of heaven looks upon with approval, they gain victories over their wrong hereditary and cultivated tendencies. Then like Daniel they make impressions upon other hearts that will never be effaced. The influence will be carried to all parts of the world. {20MR 113.2}
Men are taking sides, according to their choice. These that are feeding on the Word of God will show this by their practice; they are on the Lord's side, seeking by precept and example to reform the world. All that have refused to be taught of God hold the traditions of men. They at last pass over on the side of the enemy, against God, and are written, Antichrist. The people of God, who understand our position in this world's history, are, with ears open and hearts softened and subdued, pressing together in unity, one with Jesus Christ. Those who will not practice the lessons of Christ, but keep themselves in hand, to mold themselves, find in Antichrist the center of their union. While the two parties stand in collision, the Lord will appear, and shine before His ancients gloriously. He will set up a kingdom that shall stand forever. {20MR 113.3}
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Perhaps it will help to try - " Conversion is" 96 - hits
"Candidates who have grown to manhood and womanhood should understand their duty better than do the younger ones; but the pastor of the church has a duty to do for these souls. Have they wrong habits and practices? It is the duty of the pastor to have special meetings with them. Give them Bible readings, converse and pray with them, and plainly show the claims of the Lord upon them. Read to them the teaching of the Bible in regard to conversion. Show what is the fruit of conversion, the evidence that they love God. Show that true conversion is a change of heart, of thoughts and purposes. Evil habits are to be given up. The sins of evil-speaking, of jealousy, of disobedience, are to be put away. A warfare must be waged against every evil trait of character. Then the believing one can understandingly take to himself the promise, "Ask, and it shall be given you." Matt. 7:7. --Testimonies, vol. 6, p. 95. (1900) {Ev 311.1}
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Conversion is a work that most do not appreciate. It is not a small matter to transform an earthly, sin-loving mind and bring it to understand the unspeakable love of Christ, the charms of His grace, and the excellency of God, so that the soul shall be imbued with divine love and captivated with the heavenly mysteries. When he understands these things, his former life appears disgusting and hateful. He hates sin, and, breaking his heart before God, he embraces Christ as the life and joy of the soul. He renounces his former pleasures. He has a new mind, new affections, new interest, new will; his sorrows, and desires, and love are all new. . . . Heaven, which once possessed no charms, is now viewed in its riches and glory; and he contemplates it as his future home, where he shall see, love, and praise the One who hath redeemed him by His precious blood. The works of holiness, which appeared wearisome, are now his delight. The Word of God, which was dull and uninteresting, is now chosen as his study, the man of his counsel. It is as a letter written to him from God, bearing the inscription of the Eternal. His thoughts, his words, and his deeds are brought to this rule and tested. He trembles at the commands and threatenings which it contains, while he firmly grasps its promises and strengthens his soul by appropriating them to himself. {FLB 139.2}
When the transforming grace of Christ is upon the heart, a righteous indignation will take possession of the soul because the sinner has so long neglected the great salvation that God has provided for him. He will then surrender himself, body, soul, and spirit, to God and will withdraw from companionship with Satan, through the grace given him of God. {FLB 139.3}
All need to understand the process of conversion. The fruit is seen in the changed life. {FLB 139.4}
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None are living Christians unless they have a daily experience in the things of God and daily practice self-denial, cheerfully bearing the cross and following Christ. Every living Christian will advance daily in the divine life. As he advances toward perfection, he experiences a conversion to God every day; and this conversion is not completed until he attains to perfection of Christian character, a full preparation for the finishing touch of immortality. . . . {AG 291.4}
Religion is not merely an emotion, a feeling. It is a principle which is interwoven with all the daily duties and transactions of life. . . . It is continuance in well-doing that will form characters for heaven. {AG 291.5}
We must live for Christ minute by minute, hour by hour, and day by day; then Christ will dwell in us, and when we meet together, His love will be in our hearts, welling up like a spring in the desert, refreshing all, and making those who are ready to perish, eager to drink of the waters of life. {AG 291.6}
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For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Eph. 2:8. {AG 319.1}
The apostle desired those to whom he was writing to remember that they must reveal in their lives the glorious change wrought in them by Christ's transforming grace. They were to be lights in the world, by their purified, sanctified characters exerting an influence counter to the influence of satanic agencies. They were ever to remember the words, "Not of yourselves." They could not change their own hearts. And when by their efforts souls were led from the ranks of Satan to take their stand for Christ, they were not to claim any credit for the transformation wrought. {AG 319.2}
God calls upon all who will to come and drink of the waters of life freely. The power of God is the one element of efficiency in the grand work of obtaining the victory over the world, the flesh, and the devil. It is in accordance with the divine plan that we follow every ray of light given of God. Man can accomplish nothing without God, and God has arranged His plans so as to accomplish nothing in the restoration of the human race without the cooperation of the human with the divine. The part man is required to sustain is immeasurably small, yet in the plan of God it is just that part that is needed to make the work a success. {AG 319.3}
The great change that is seen in the life of a sinner after conversion is not brought about by any human goodness. . . . {AG 319.4}
He who is rich in mercy has imparted His grace to us. Then let praise and thanksgiving ascend to Him, because He has become our Saviour. Let His love, filling our hearts and minds, flow forth from our lives in rich currents of grace. When we were dead in trespasses and sins, He quickened us into spiritual life. He brought grace and pardon, filling the soul with new life. Thus the sinner passes from death to life. He now takes up his new duties in Christ's service. His life becomes true and strong, filled with good works. "Because I live," Christ said, "ye shall live also." . . . {AG 319.5}
There will be no second probation. Now, while it is called today, if we will hear the voice of the Lord, and turn fully to Him, He will have mercy upon us, and abundantly pardon. {AG 319.6}

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Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. Acts 3:19. {HP 20.1}
In order to be saved, we must know by experience the meaning of true conversion. It is a fearful mistake for men and women to go on day by day professing to be Christians yet having no right to the name. In God's sight profession is nothing, position is nothing. He asks, Is the life in harmony with My precepts? There are many who suppose that they are converted but who are not able to bear the test of character presented in the Word of God. . . . {HP 20.2}
Conversion is a change of heart, a turning from unrighteousness to righteousness. Relying upon the merits of Christ, exercising true faith in Him, the repentant sinner receives pardon for sin. As he ceases to do evil and learns to do well, he grows in grace and in the knowledge of God. He sees that in order to follow Jesus he must separate from the world, and after counting the cost, he looks upon all as loss if he may but win Christ. He enlists in His army and bravely and cheerfully engages in the warfare, fighting against natural inclinations and selfish desires and bringing the will into subjection to the will of Christ. Daily he seeks the Lord for grace, and he is strengthened and helped. Self once reigned in his heart, and worldly pleasure was his delight. Now self is dethroned, and God reigns supreme. His life reveals the fruit of righteousness. The sins he once loved he now hates. Firmly and resolutely he follows in the path of holiness. This is genuine conversion. . . . {HP 20.3}
Let us not forget that in his conversion and sanctification man must cooperate with God. "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," the Word declares. "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Phil. 2:12, 13). Man cannot transform himself by the exercise of his will. He possesses no power by which this change may be affected. The renewing energy must come from God. The change can be made only by the Holy Spirit. He who would be saved, high or low, rich or poor, must submit to the working of this power. {HP 20.4}

Chap. 15 - God's Grace Transforms the Life
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:7. {HP 21.1}
The great truth of the conversion of the heart by the Holy Spirit is presented in Christ's words to Nicodemus: "Verily, verily I say unto thee, Except a man be born from above {margin}, he cannot see the kingdom of God. . . . That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:3-6). {HP 21.2}

It is by the renewing of the heart that the grace of God works to transform the life. No mere external change is sufficient to bring us into harmony with God. There are many who try to reform by correcting this bad habit or that bad habit, and they hope in this way to become Christians, but they are beginning in the wrong place. Our first work is with the heart. . . . {HP 21.3}
The leaven of truth works secretly, silently, steadily, to transform the soul. The natural inclinations are softened and subdued. New thoughts, new feelings, new motives, are implanted. A new standard of character is set up--the life of Christ. The mind is changed; the faculties are aroused to action in new lines. Man is not endowed with new faculties, but the faculties he has are sanctified. The conscience is awakened. {HP 21.4}
The Scriptures are the great agency in this transformation of character. Christ prayed, "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth" (John 17:17). If studied and obeyed, the Word of God works in the heart, subduing every unholy attribute. The Holy Spirit comes to convict of sin, and the faith that springs up in the heart works by love to Christ, conforming us, body, soul, and spirit, to His will. {HP 21.5}
A man sees his danger. He sees that he needs a change of character, a change of heart. He is stirred; his fears are aroused. The Spirit of God is working in him, and with fear and trembling he works for himself, seeking to find out his defects of character and to see what he can do to bring about the needed change in his life. . . . He confesses his sins to God, and if he has injured anyone, he confesses the wrong to the one he has injured. . . . He acts in harmony with the Spirit's working, and his conversion is genuine. {HP 21.6}

Charlene, I'm sorry I didn't respond to this thread earlier. I just now found it. Great work, and good quotes. From what I read it is clear to me that Ellen White believed in the "process of conversion" during which time a person lays aside his moral defects of character. And I also read where she spoke of life "after conversion" when the Lord Jesus implants the incorruptible seed of the "new man" within those who have completely crucified self. She described a when-then relationship between before, during and after the miracle of rebirth.

Is that what you got out of those quotes?

Thanks for posting here Mike.

Yes, I see it that way too. Where we differ is that i see the process start with the New Birth/ Baby Christian experience which ends in the conversion completed.

I am still studying the subject of New Birth/Born Again experience. I see the seed, newly planted into the heart and watered by the Holy Spirit, bringing forth the tiny blade, as the New Birth. The seed had to die before it could live again. This is where we seem to see it different. I also see that the seed grew to be an ear then grow to the full mature ear, ready for harvest the conversion process. One is converted at New Birth but not complete or completed till the growth is matured. One may be saved from start to finish...when one maintains this saving relationship with God. But.....if one stumbles, and with a humble and contrite spirit, confesses, repents and forsakes, He continues on his way in the strength of his Maker.

Before probation closes, One must have recieved Victory , In Christ, in all thing. If we are alive when Jesus comes for His people, we will be without defects/spot or wrinkle, for He is perfecting/sanctifying a Holy people, that have grown to the full stature of God.

I will repeat this one quote to emphasize my thoughts:

"When truth becomes an abiding principle in the life, the soul is "born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever." This new birth is the result of receiving Christ as the Word of God. When by the Holy Spirit divine truths are impressed upon the heart, new conceptions are awakened, and the energies hitherto dormant are aroused to co-operate with God. {AA 520.1}"

This seems to be a beginning, and is what I believe is taught by the Bible and SOP.

[ March 21, 2002: Message edited by: Charlene Van Hook ]

Charlene, thank you for drawing attention to the idea of God having a perfect people at the end of time. That brings up a situation we should address in the context of these discussions. Is it true that God has been thus far unable to produce perfect Christians, and that He will be unable to do this until just before the close of probation?

Perhaps that's not what you meant, but that's exactly what is implied in this so called "final generation" perfection theology advocated by so many conservative Christians. But the truth is that God has been perfecting people ever since the beginning of time. You see, from what I've read in the Bible and the SOP, not sinning is not hard. Nowhere does it say laying aside sin is too difficult a task for those who cooperate with the Holy Spirit.

The idea that ceasing from sin is hard is the fundemental foundation of every deviating doctrine that teaches laying aside sin is hard and the work of a lifetime of sinning and repenting. The natural next step is to believe that perfection of character is the end result of this lifelong process of laying aside sinful traits of character. In other words, we become perfect by becoming less and less sinful over the course of a lifetime.

The basic premise of this line of thinking assumes that becoming less sinful is the same thing as becoming more righteous. But nothing could be further from the truth. Not sinning is not righteousness. True, it is right not to sin. But if all we ever do is not sin, then we still haven't done anything righteous. Being righteous involves experiencing the fruits of the Spirit, which have nothing to do with not sinning. Being righteous is imitating the example of Jesus, who never had to cease sinning. Everything He did had nothing to do with not sinning and everything to do with maturing in the fruits of the Spirit.

That's why I think it's so important that we understand that Jesus began perfect and that He also became perfect as He matured in the fruits of the Spirit. If we can grasp the significance of His example, as it pertains to the subject of Christian perfection, then I believe we are in a better position to understand what the Bible and SOP are saying about it too.

But if we assume that the phrase "becoming perfect" or "pressing on toward perfection" includes the idea we have unknown defects of character which God reveals over the span of a lifetime as we are able to endure it - then we must also assume that the perfection of Christian character is somehow related to becoming less and less defective or sinful. But this idea rejects the example of Jesus as the model of what it means to become perfect. And is that what we really want to believe?

Then there's the problem of blaming God for the existence of unknown defects of character after we are born again. That is, if we are willing to assume that it's up to God to reveal our unknown imperfections after we are born again, then our not knowing about them is God's fault since, according to what so many people believe, He does not expose them any sooner than we are capable of knowing about it (as if knowing about it is more damaging than ignorantly experiencing it).

In reality most of us are aware of all kinds of unlovely traits of character which we have not been able to consistently resist unto the honor and glory of God (which is only possible if we resist by cooperating with the love of God - our power supply for victory). And are our failures any more or less unsettling because we know what is right and wrong? Would we be better off not knowing the difference between right and wrong?

Or are our defects of character less upsetting if we don't realize that haboring hateful feelings is wrong, or whatever imperfection God supposedly hasn't brought to our attention yet? Or are the depleting effects of sin just as unlovely whether we can identify the source of our dissatisfaction or not? And isn't it true that the destructive nature of sin is what drives us to Jesus to find out why we don't feel at peace with ourselves?

Do you see what I mean? We are never really at rest until we are completely free of the burden of sin. Otherwise, if it were actually possible to experience perfect peace while still possessed of unconquered defects of character, then what is the truth about sin? If we can have the joy of Jesus without the life and character of Jesus, what does that say about righteousness?

And if we can agree that it's not possible to live at peace while burdened with unknown defects of character, then what does that say about a God who drags out revealing our imperfections over the length of a lifetime? If sin truly is the source of all unrest and unhappiness, then why would a loving Saviour wait until the end of our life to influence us to lay them aside? Is God a whimp? or a tyrant? or what?

These are some of the reasons why I believe ceasing from sin is not a big deal for those who cooperate with the Spirit of God. It doesn't take Jesus years and years to influence us to lay aside our imperfections. Living without sin is a miracle, and God is an expert with miracles. Exposing and eliminating defects of character does not depend on our weaknessess or our strengths, thus it has nothing to do with whether or not we can cope with the truth without Jesus. In Christ all things are possible.

Mike, this will be a long post so don't run out of energy before you complete it. Your very well chosen words can be misunderstood by me and visa versa..so i am going to copy your post so i may be able to address issue by issue and see how close we come. First I want to thank you for your patience and for widening my understanding of this subject....

Mike wrote:
Charlene, thank you for drawing attention to the idea of God having a perfect people at the end of time. That brings up a situation we should address in the context of these discussions. Is it true that God has been thus far unable to produce perfect Christians, and that He will be unable to do this until just before the close of probation?

charlene: No Mike, God has been perfecting and sanctifying people from the beginning. It is that i was focusing on the generation that will soon see Jesus. Also to every Church in church history from the beginning have had the same promises that we may claim. The "by Faiths" of hebrews are just a few. Remember the "great Multitude"

Mike wrote:
Perhaps that's not what you meant, but that's exactly what is implied in this so called "final generation" perfection theology advocated by so many conservative Christians. But the truth is that God has been perfecting people ever since the beginning of time. You see, from what I've read in the Bible and the SOP, not sinning is not hard. Nowhere does it say laying aside sin is too difficult a task for those who cooperate with the Holy Spirit.

Mike wrote:

The idea that ceasing from sin is hard is the fundemental foundation of every deviating doctrine that teaches laying aside sin is hard and the work of a lifetime of sinning and repenting. The natural next step is to believe that perfection of character is the end result of this lifelong process of laying aside sinful traits of character. In other words, we become perfect by becoming less and less sinful over the course of a lifetime.

charlene: I'll take it one step further...from the first step of accepting Christ, I see the robe of Christ's righteousness placed around our shoulders. I see that submitted hearts to the will of God may be perfect at every step of perfecting. I see that His robe will not cover any unconfessed sin but is given freely to those who remain in cooperation with God, by partaking of His Devine Nature.

Mike Wrote:

The basic premise of this line of thinking assumes that becoming less sinful is the same thing as becoming more righteous. But nothing could be further from the truth. Not sinning is not righteousness. True, it is right not to sin. But if all we ever do is not sin, then we still haven't done anything righteous. Being righteous involves experiencing the fruits of the Spirit, which have nothing to do with not sinning. Being righteous is imitating the example of Jesus, who never had to cease sinning. Everything He did had nothing to do with not sinning and everything to do with maturing in the fruits of the Spirit.

charlene: Amen

Mike wrote:

That's why I think it's so important that we understand that Jesus began perfect and that He also became perfect as He matured in the fruits of the Spirit. If we can grasp the significance of His example, as it pertains to the subject of Christian perfection, then I believe we are in a better position to understand what the Bible and SOP are saying about it too.

But if we assume that the phrase "becoming perfect" or "pressing on toward perfection" includes the idea we have unknown defects of character which God reveals over the span of a lifetime as we are able to endure it - then we must also assume that the perfection of Christian character is somehow related to becoming less and less defective or sinful. But this idea rejects the example of Jesus as the model of what it means to become perfect. And is that what we really want to believe?

Charlene: SOP qoute:

Advent Review and Sabbath Herald--T- 08-06-89
"In seasons of temptations we seem to lose sight of the fact that God tests us that our faith may be tried, and be found unto praise and honor and
glory at the appearing of Jesus. The Lord places us in different positions to develop us. If we have defects of character of which we are not aware, he gives us discipline that will bring those defects to our knowledge, that we
may overcome them. It is his providence that brings us into varying circumstances. In each new position, we meet a different class of temptations. How many times, when we are placed in some trying situation, we think, "This is a wonderful mistake. How I wish I had stayed where I was before." But why is it that you are not satisfied?--It is because your circumstances have served to bring new defects in your character to your notice; but nothing is revealed but that which was in you. What should you do when you are tried by the providences of the Lord? --You should rise to the emergency of the case, and overcome your defects of character."

Mike wrote:
Then there's the problem of blaming God for the existence of unknown defects of character after we are born again. That is, if we are willing to assume that it's up to God to reveal our unknown imperfections after we are born again, then our not knowing about them is God's fault since, according to what so many people believe, He does not expose them any sooner than we are capable of knowing about it (as if knowing about it is more damaging than ignorantly experiencing it).

In reality most of us are aware of all kinds of unlovely traits of character which we have not been able to consistently resist unto the honor and glory of God (which is only possible if we resist by cooperating with the love of God - our power supply for victory). And are our failures any more or less unsettling because we know what is right and wrong? Would we be better off not knowing the difference between right and wrong?

charlene: there are no traits of character left unknown that is important to God....He is responcible for our perfecting when we claim His promises in submission to His will. If you will read the dream Ellen White had about the saints climing up the mountain, throwing baggage over the side to lighten the load and the road getting more narrow and more steep till their feet were bleeding and they were hanging on to the side of the mountain with finger tips then came to the wide spance of nothing but for the red cord...of faith, when grasped tightly it would swing them to victory. Does that say easy to you? The probationary time and is a testing time:

EG White quote:

Our High Calling----Will You Bear the Refiner's Fire?----PG- 312
"The refining furnace is to remove the dross. When the Refiner sees His image reflected in you perfectly, He will remove you from the furnace. You will not be left to be consumed or to endure the fiery ordeal any longer than is necessary for your purification. But it is necessary for you, in order to reflect the divine image, to submit to the process the Refiner chooses for you, that you may be cleansed, purified, and every spot and blemish removed--not even a wrinkle left in your Christian character. May the Lord help you . . . to choose to have the will and work of God accomplished in you. . . . Look up! Jesus lives. Jesus loves. Jesus pities, and He will receive you with all your burden of care and trouble if you will come to Him and lay your burden upon Him. He has promised He will never leave or forsake those who put their trust in Him."

Mike wrote:

Or are our defects of character less upsetting if we don't realize that haboring hateful feelings is wrong, or whatever imperfection God supposedly hasn't brought to our attention yet? Or are the depleting effects of sin just as unlovely whether we can identify the source of our dissatisfaction or not? And isn't it true that the destructive nature of sin is what drives us to Jesus to find out why we don't feel at peace with ourselves?

Do you see what I mean? We are never really at rest until we are completely free of the burden of sin. Otherwise, if it were actually possible to experience perfect peace while still possessed of unconquered defects of character, then what is the truth about sin? If we can have the joy of Jesus without the life and character of Jesus, what does that say about righteousness?

charlene: We are free from the burden of sin, when we give the life to God to perfect us. We may pocess the trust that when God says "He will finish the work he started in us" then we know that trusting in Him to do His word we know we will come through every test and trial victorious, and our future is sure.

Mike wrote:

And if we can agree that it's not possible to live at peace while burdened with unknown defects of character, then what does that say about a God who drags out revealing our imperfections over the length of a lifetime? If sin truly is the source of all unrest and unhappiness, then why would a loving Saviour wait until the end of our life to influence us to lay them aside? Is God a whimp? or a tyrant? or what?

Charlene: I don't think we have unknown sins to worry us....I am not burdend with the unknown. God will see fit to bring what ever test and trial into my life to reveal a fault that needs to be given to Him...Then it is His to give me the power to overcome that i claim.

Mike wrote:
These are some of the reasons why I believe ceasing from sin is not a big deal for those who cooperate with the Spirit of God. It doesn't take Jesus years and years to influence us to lay aside our imperfections. Living without sin is a miracle, and God is an expert with miracles. Exposing and eliminating defects of character does not depend on our weaknessess or our strengths, thus it has nothing to do with whether or not we can cope with the truth without Jesus.

Charlene: Sometimes He needs to bring us across the same tests over and over till we get the victory. He permits us to gain victory by seeing our mistakes and allowing us to make the same mistake until we give it all to God and claim the victory. He is long suffering...we may choose to give up and be lost, he never takes our choices from us. If we are faithful, He is faithful, and never temp us without a way to escape.

Christ could have come for His people much sooner than now. What is He wating for?

The Desire of Ages--- "It Is Finished"----PG- 764
But not so when the great controversy shall be ended. Then, the plan of redemption having been completed, the character of God is revealed to
all created intelligences. The precepts of His law are seen to be perfect and immutable. Then sin has made manifest its nature, Satan his character. Then the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love and establish His honor before a universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law."

Mike wrote:
"In Christ all things are possible."

charlene: Amen and Amen

[ March 21, 2002: Message edited by: Charlene Van Hook ]

Charlene wrote:
"I'll take it one step further...from the first step of accepting Christ, I see the robe of Christ's righteousness placed around our shoulders. I see that submitted hearts to the will of God may be perfect at every step of perfecting. I see that His robe will not cover any unconfessed sin but is given freely to those who remain in cooperation with God, by partaking of His Devine Nature."

I would call this justification. The robe symbol is used in two differnt ways: 1) the imputed righteousness of Jesus covers our unknown sins, which is justification, and 2) the imparted righteousness of Jesus is experiential, which is sanctification.

Some like to say that both are operational as soon as a person accepts Jesus as their personal Saviour. But from what I've studied we cannot receive the imparted righteousness of Jesus until after we cooperate with the influence of the Holy Spirit and completely crucify our old man habits of sin. That's when the Spirit takes His place upon the throne of our soul temple and begins empowering us from within to use our faculties of mind and body to imitate the sinless example of Jesus.

RE: the RH Aug 6, 1889, paragraph 3 quote please notice the very next three paragraphs and I believe it is plain that she is referring to people would have not yet been broken on the Rock:

Paragraph 4
"It is coming in contact with difficulties that will give you spiritual muscle and sinew. You will become strong in Christ if you endure the testing process, and the proving of God. But if you find fault with your situation, and with everybody around you, you will only grow weaker. I have seen people who were always finding fault with everything and everybody around them, but the fault was in themselves. They had need to fall upon the Rock and be broken. They felt whole in their own self-righteousness. The trials that come upon us, come to prove us. The enemy of our souls is working against us continually, but our defects of character will be made manifest to us, and when they are made plain, instead of finding fault with others, let us say, "I will arise and go to my Father."

Paragraph 5
"When we begin to realize that we are sinners, and fall on the Rock to be broken, the Everlasting arms are placed about us, and we are brought close to the heart of Jesus. Then we shall be charmed with his loveliness, and disgusted with our own righteousness. We need to come close to the foot of the cross. The more we humble ourselves there, the more exalted will God's love appear. The grace and righteousness of Christ will not avail for him who feels whole, for him who thinks he is reasonably good, and is contented with his condition. There is no room for Christ in the heart of such a person; for he does not realize his need of divine light and aid."

Paragraph 6
"Jesus says, "Blessed are the poor in spirit; for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." There is fullness of grace in God, and we may have his Spirit and power in large measure. Do not feed on the husks of self-righteousness, but go to the Lord. He has the best robe to put upon you, and his arms are open to receive you. Christ will say, "Take away the filthy garments, and clothe him with a change of raiment."

Charlene wrote:
"I don't think we have unknown sins to worry us....I am not burdend with the unknown. God will see fit to bring what ever test and trial into my life to reveal a fault that needs to be given to Him...Then it is His to give me the power to overcome that i claim."

The idea that we can sin unwittingly with impunity disregards the truth about sin. Sin is like a cancer, and we can no more sin without experiencing it's effects than a person who doesn't know he has cancer can be healthy because of his ignorance. In other words, the very nature of sin requires that we suffer the effects even if we don't know why. True, we may not feel guilty, but we cannot escape the consequences of sin. If it were possible to sin with impunity, without suffering the consequences, then sin would cease to be sin.

For example, I would be miserable, even if I didn't realize it was wrong, if I was ignorantly neglecting someone in need - like if I saw a visitor eating by himself during potluck and I don't go out of my way to make him feel welcome. Not an uncommon problem in churches, eh? Now, if the Holy Spirit was dead then we can safely say that we wouldn't experience any discomfort from our neglecting the visitor. But the truth is the Spirit of God is very much alive in such cases and is on hand to prompt and persuade us to do something about the visitor, and it is as natural for us feel uncomfortable under the influence of the Spirit as it is if we knew what we were doing is wrong. And it is precisely this uneasiness that propels us to seek Jesus to answer why we are feeling so strange. And we can trust Him to tell us why.

Can we really say a person is converted and born again if they are truly ignorant of such important virtues as being attentive to the needs of others such as the visitor example? How many people do you know who have stopped attending church because they didn't feel loved and welcomed? Is it because most of the church members are converted?

[ March 21, 2002: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Mike,

We seem to be going around in circles. I see we agree on some of this subjectI don't wish to branch off into all the aspects of sin to discover that we are just back to the beginning again....

Thak you for your posts and know that this has gotten me into the topic again and has widened my understanding. May God Bless all our studies and bring us into the unity of Faith for His Glory.

Okay. But if Jesus isn't our example of a converted, born again believer - then who is?