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Daniel: The above is again obvious. When will the grave stir? The verse says AT HIS COMING! At the second coming the dead in Christ will stir, they will rise up at His call. Those that are asleep in the grave will hear His voice and stir! The righteous that is. At the end of the 1000 years we are told the wicked dead are alive again so obviously we see once again those in the grave astir, to rise to meet final judgment.

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Read this text again Daniel, its referring to the coming of King of Babylon into hell after being killed (vs 4)

You know, I only quote part of these texts to save space with the understanding that you will read them all in context. So please read more than I have posted in scripture so you will have the full picture.

Daniel: You are right Lobo. I was in a real hurry this morning when I read your response. I did read the first three in depth and answered them but when I got to Isaiah 14 I did not. So I stand corrected. BUT at this point with you not challenging the first three I must assume you can see the connection we are presenting there.

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Daniel: The above verses deals with who Lobo? With Lucifer, with Satan. The time will come as Rev 19 and 20 reveal all will see this one who had made the earth to tremble, who had messed with all the mighty men, turning the world into a desert, refusing to let go of God's people as did Pharaoh. They will say "this is the one that did all of that? His fate is the same as mine!"

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Again, it you read the entire passage in context Isaiah is referring to Babylon. I know you will try and make that as symbolic Babylon as in Rev, but that is not the case as the very next verse talks about Assyria and the one after that talks about Philistine. So unless you have proof that those two ate symbolic, then you are left with them being the literal kingdoms. In which case you are mistaken in your interpretation.

Daniel: Ok let us now look at them again. In the KJV we see Lucifer named in verse 12. The prophecy seems to be mainly dealing with him and he IS the ultimate king of Babylon is he not? Babylon being the ultimate kingdom that is against Christ and His people. When will all the nations see him as being describe here in Isaiah 14? I see this taking place at the end of the 1000 yaers. Just food for thought my friend.

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Actually it sure seems quite clear to me Lobo. The above verses CAN be reconciled with the understanding that the dead are just that... dead.

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If one ignores all evidence to the contrary of their position, sure, everything is simple. However, if one is honest and weighs all evidence equally and without preconceived bias, then it is not very clear at all.


Lastly it seems you are saying that the fire is eternal but the people are not eternally burning, is that your position? If so, where is the eternally burning fire and what is the fuel that keeps this fire burning, or is it like the burning bush that is burning without fuel?

Daniel: No I am saying the fire cannot be quenched BUT when its fuel is gone it will go out. Yes the people are NOT eternally burning but are eternally destroyed, turned into ashes as indicated my Malachi. yes there is a hell but it just does not last forever as is being taught today. This would mean these people have eternal life, just a bit on the warm side.

Scripture teaches we can have eternal life ONLY if we accept Christ.

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Daniel: The above is again obvious. When will the grave stir? The verse says AT HIS COMING! At the second coming the dead in Christ will stir, they will rise up at His call. Those that are asleep in the grave will hear His voice and stir! The righteous that is. At the end of the 1000 years we are told the wicked dead are alive again so obviously we see once again those in the grave astir, to rise to meet final judgment.

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Daniel, I don’t see any point in continuing this conversation if you are not going to read scripture as written. I know you desperately want it to say a certain thing to justify your current beliefs, but that simple is not the case.

Lobo, I do believe you missed my recognition that I was wrong about WHOSE coming it was. Sorry about the misunderstanding. Here is my acknowledgment again for the mistake:

Daniel: You are right Lobo. I was in a real hurry this morning when I read your response. I did read the first three in depth and answered them but when I got to Isaiah 14 I did not. So I stand corrected. BUT at this point with you not challenging the first three I must assume you can see the connection we are presenting there.

So I agree with you it is NOT Christ's coming being discussed here but the coming of the "King of Babylon" And yes I do believe this is a prophecy dealing mostly with Lucifer as the KJV strongly suggests. And yes Lucifer being the prince of THIS world basically has ALL kingdoms under his "thumb". While it is true God is the ultimate ruler Satan does have control of those who have yielded to him do you not think so? As we look around in the history of mankind we certainly can see Satan manifesting his character through many nations and then God stepping in and saying "that is enough".

And again Yes I look at what Isaiah is saying as a prophecy, not necessarily a decree of judgment against JUST literal Babylon and its literal human king. It certainly could have some dual applications, I am sure you would not deny that.

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Lobo: Good point Daniel, I agree with you. I myself do not believe hell will last past the lake of fire because hell is thrown into it at the end, meaning it is destroyed or removed. So I fully agree that those that go to hell will only be there until that time and not forever. However, this fact does not negate the fact that scriptures teaches that there is a hell right now and evil souls are there right now. As I have pointed out before, I believe this is the same place as the abyss.

Daniel: I am sure you understand we as SDA's do not accept nor believe in the immortal soul. Scripture states only God is immortal. But putting that aside for a moment do you believe that our Heavenly Father is a just God? I am sure you do. How just is it for a let us say a teenager who died outside the ark of safety 4000 years ago. He was not a REAL bad kid but was still a sinner not accepting God's provisions. Now here we are almost 4000 years later and we have an Adolf Hitler. Are you suggesting that this teenager was punished for 4000 years LONGER then Hitler who, according to your understanding, only entered into hell about 50 years ago1 Does this sound just? Not to me my friend. Food for thought.

Yours in Christ
Daniel

I haven't had time to read all the posts so hope I'm not repeating anything.

I read about the Jewish concept of Hell on a Jewish web-site.

Interestingly the Jewish beleif is that there is a hell and heaven as actual places although they don't go into much detail or studies of what they will be like. They say that people should not bother too much about these things and leave it in God's hands.

They also beleive that people will not stay in Hell for more than about a year during which time they will have the opportunity to change their ways and enter heaven or if they don't they will be annihilated.

So it seems as if at least part of the SDA believe re hell is based on possibly "catholic" teachings.

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Daniel: I am sure you understand we as SDA's do not accept nor believe in the immortal soul. Scripture states only God is immortal. But putting that aside for a moment do you believe that our Heavenly Father is a just God? I am sure you do. How just is it for a let us say a teenager who died outside the ark of safety 4000 years ago. He was not a REAL bad kid but was still a sinner not accepting God's provisions. Now here we are almost 4000 years later and we have an Adolf Hitler. Are you suggesting that this teenager was punished for 4000 years LONGER then Hitler who, according to your understanding, only entered into hell about 50 years ago1 Does this sound just? Not to me my friend. Food for thought.

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Daniel,

First, let me clear up something; I do not believe the soul is immortal. Immortality is always conditional and granted by God, it does not exist outside of that relationship. So if souls live on it is only through God granting that ability not through some endemic quality.

Daniel: Praise the LORD! I guess we are not to far apart in all of this now are we?

Lobo: Next, I don’t think the test of what scripture does or doesn’t mean is our ability to rationalize or understand God and His judgments. So whether or not we think something is just or not just has no bearing on the truth.

Daniel: True BUT still God has given us a sense of what justice is has He not? The concept does not nor would be cosdidered less just then our own concepts and what does Job say?

(Job 4:17 KJV) "Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?"

The obvious answer is of course not! Our God IS a God of justice, truth, mercy and LOVE! Love does not punish unjustly.

Lobo: Lastly, on this same issue maybe you have hit upon the reason Jesus went and preached to the souls dead in the flood while He was dead for those three days? Maybe they have another chance because of their inability to know and understand Jesus as the messiah?

“18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,” 1 Peter 3

Daniel: It is interesting that you should bring into this the above verse. Does it say Christ went AFTER His death to those who died in the flood? No it says Christ THROUGH His spirit visited those who disobeyed WHILE the ark was being built. BUT only eight were saved the rest lost. Scripture makes it clear we all die THEN comes the judgment, we are all judged according to the deeds we have done in the flesh. There is NO second chance, we only have ONE.

But anyway certainly have enjoyed our discussion.

Yours in Christ
Daniel

Daniel, I think you should read this text again.

“18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,” 1 Peter 3


Please notice the sequence of the sentences and who is being discussed.

1) “He was put to death but made alive by the spirit” – This indicates that whatever occurs after this sentence to Jesus would be related to Him being alive by the spirit or in spirit. So this was after His death and not during the time of Noah.

2) “Through whom also” – This is a reference to the previous sentence where Jesus was made alive by the spirit. Therefore, this can only refer to the spirit.

3) “He went and preached to the spirits in prison” – The “He” is a reference to Jesus. And it clearly states He went and preached to SPIRITS in PRISON. The reference to spirits is clearly not humans that are alive and the reference to prison is consistent with descriptions of the abyss where angels are held in chains (Jude).

4) ”who disobeyed long ago”….. – a reference to the previous sentence subject which was the spirits in prison.

So Daniel, it is clear that Jesus was alive through the spirit and went to preach to SPIRITS in PRISON and these spirits were those that disobeyed during the time of the flood. I believe anyone with an open mind can see that is what this texts states.

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Formatting correction only. - Daryl

[ June 06, 2003, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

Lobo,

Your reconstruction of I Peter 3:18 is interesting, but rather skewed. Jesus was "made alive by the Spirit" alright, but He was made alive Sunday morning not during the time He was dead (see v 22). And yes, through the Spirit Jesus "preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed . . . in the days of Noah while the ark was being built," but as I pointed out before, the only time Jesus could preach to those spirits was while they were alive. That, as the text specifically states, was in the days of Noah.

Bob Lee

So now your explanation is that Jude is calling living people “Spirits”? And don’t confuse this from having a spirit. Jude literally stated “spirits”. So can you tell me where any other writer in all scripture called a living person a “spirit”?

It seems to me that you are really reaching to make this text not say what most would agree it literal does say.