Doug, your answer is interesting, but it is hard to know how to hear it. The 'but' in your answer seems to negate the responsibility of the doer. What do you mean, 'The Father willed that Jesus die on the Cross'? The way you say it, it seems something that the Father wanted and planned.

Which do you mean:

1. The Father wanted it and planned it and Satan fulfilled God's will?
2. That it was the fulfillment of the Father's righteousness and Satan was his minister in the act?
3. That the Father’s righteousness required the death of his Son in order to be able to forgive man, and he used the enmity/hostility/antagonism of Satan to accomplish it?
4. That the Father understood the nature of sin/Satan/fallen man and so foreknew what they would do, and was nevertheless willing to suffer the atrocity upon his Son so that the power of sin/Satan would be broken?
5. Some other concept?

Appreciate your clarification

Shalom

Going back to page 1:

>Thus in the substitute doctrine, man is saved from the penalty for sin, rather than from sin itself.

The "Thus" implies that what then follows logically follows from what was previously presented which is not the case here at all.

As the song says: "be of sin the double cure, cleanse me from its guilt and power."

John, the devil inspired the people to kill Jesus. But God planned and willed that Jesus be offered as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
--Ðøug ™

John asked - "So I would like to ask you, that which was exercised upon Christ from Gethsemane to the death on Golgotha, was it the work of God or the work of darkness?"

The real issue was not the physical and verbal abuse Jesus suffered at the hands and mouth of men and demons. The wrath of God deals with the guilt and shame and eternal separation Jesus experienced on our behalf. He conquered and consumed our sin and second death before He died. His journey in and out of the tomb proves He is the lawful owner of the keys of hell and death.

Mike thanks for your comments, However you seem to have missed the point of my question.

2 Corinthians 6:14 …what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? There needs to be a clean and clear distinction between the works of God and the works of darkness, between the spirit of this world and the spirit of God.

Again I ask, that which was exercised upon Christ from Gethsemane to the death on Golgotha, was it the work of God or the work of darkness?"

I do not wish to minimise the guilt and horror of darkness that Christ experienced. But that which is important to understand it in truth, is to understand whose work it is. Then indeed we can understand what it is all about.

Whose work was it that was exercised on Job, whose thoughts, whose principles?
Whose work was it that was exercised on Christ, whose thoughts, whose principles?

Can we discern what is of God and what is of Satan?

"The real issue was not the physical and verbal abuse Jesus suffered at the hands and mouth of men and demons." This was Satan's work.

"The wrath of God deals with the guilt and shame and eternal separation Jesus experienced on our behalf." This was God's work.

"This was God's work."? ... Stunning… …shocking…

quote:

---

The wrath of God deals with the guilt and shame and eternal separation Jesus experienced on our behalf. He conquered and consumed our sin and second death before He died.

---

One more question. Please Mike, where and what was the sin, and how and what the victory?

The sin was all sin and it was in His flesh. The victory was won when He consumed the contents of the cup - the wrath of God exercised toward the sin in His flesh. He gained the victory by successfully enduring and conquering the cup of God's wrath, by not dying before the cup was finished.

The wrath of God is love. If God were to continue shielding us from the reality of sin and its consequences (shame and guilt) He would be guilty as charged. But by allowing Jesus to drink the cup of God's wrath they demonstrated the truth about sin. Had Jesus not done this none of us could learn to hate sin. By suffering the wrath of God Jesus displayed the true nature of sin and the second death.

It is a mistake though to assume that these consequences are inevitable and happen aside from God's direct involvement. If that were true then why don't we suffer similar effects each time we sin? Why did God prohibit access to the tree of life when Adam and Eve sinned?

Genesis
3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

God was forced, on account of sin, to drive them from the garden to prevent them from eating the fruit and living forever as sinners. The reason why we succumb to the first death is because we are unable to eat the fruit of life - not because we are sinful. But the reason the unsaved die the second death is because God kills them in the lake of fire.

The elimination of sin and sinners in the lake of fire will be attributed to the honor and glory of God - and not to chance or natural law. Nothing can rob God of the honor and glory due Him for the final elimination of sin because throughout eternity we shall sing His praises. Like the holy of heaven we shall praise God and rejoice that He has killed the sinners. We will not praise sin for eliminating itself. The wrath of God is love.

Revelation
16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.

Revelation
18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong [is] the Lord God who judgeth her.

18:20 Rejoice over her, [thou] heaven, and [ye] holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

Revelation
19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
19:2 For true and righteous [are] his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond, both small and great.
19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Revelation
20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.
20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.