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Who Are The Remnant?
#46446
06/30/03 10:41 PM
06/30/03 10:41 PM
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I created a new topic here where the 144,000 and the Great Multitude, etc. can be researched here in relation to the following posts that were made in another topic: quote:
Mike Lowe
Pastor/2000+ Member (MSDAOL)
User # 83
posted June 30, 2003 01:09 PM
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Lobo, do you believe the 144,000 are made up of faithful SDA's during the MOB crisis? or are they literal last day Jewish converts?
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Posts: 2155 | From: Flagstaff, Arizona | Registered: Oct 2000 | IP: Logged |
Not Registered (MSDAOL)
posted June 30, 2003 01:45 PM
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Mike, I believe that in order to understand scripture we must do two things; try and see it from a Jewish perspective – as the bible and bible writers were all Jewish, and to take things literally unless there is no other way to make sense of it. That would mean taking things that literally exist in nature or do exist as literal and things that don’t as symbolic.
So based on these exegetical premises, I must conclude that 144,000 are from literal Israel. In fact, they can’t be Gentiles because the saved Gentiles and mentioned in the very same timeframe in the next verse. So just like there were a remnant of Jews who believed in Jesus in Paul’s day (Rom 11:1-5), so there will be at the end.
If you believe that SDA’s are the remnant, then I have to ask what Jewish tribe do they belong to?
You see, Rev 7 is very specific about the tribes, and to make that passage symbolic and ignore the specifics is not, in my opinion, proper exegesis.
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IP: Logged |
Mike Lowe
Pastor/2000+ Member (MSDAOL)
User # 83
posted June 30, 2003 04:59 PM
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Good point. But I've noticed whenever a number is used in Daniel or the Revelation the number is always literal whereas the thing associated with it is always symbolic. For example, 4 horns, 10 toes, 2300 days, 1260 days, 42 months, 2 witnessess, 3 frogs, etc. Consistency would expect us to interpret the 144,000 in a similar manner - 144,000 symbolic Jews. What do you think? Also, Sister White applies the 144,000 to born again believers - which could include Jewish converts.
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Posts: 2155 | From: Flagstaff, Arizona | Registered: Oct 2000 | IP: Logged |
Not Registered (MSDAOL)
posted June 30, 2003 07:58 PM
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How then do you resolve the very specific listing of numbers from each Jewish tribe? It can’t be just symbolic of the greater group of 144,000 or each tribe would not be listed separately. So if you think this is symbolic, what is each different tribe symbolic for or represent?
Also, if the 144,000 are born again believers from all nations (including Jews), who then are the saved great multitude, which actually states are from every nation, tongue, tribe and people?
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IP: Logged |
Please continue your discussion on this here. ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
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Re: Who Are The Remnant?
#46447
07/01/03 03:18 PM
07/01/03 03:18 PM
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SDA
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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In order to believe the 144,000 are only Jewish converts during the time of trouble then it would seem reasonable to agree, at least in part, with the dispensational views of certain evangelical Christians. But the Bible makes it clear to me that in Christ Jews and Gentiles are one. Jesus rejected the nation of Israel as His chosen people and replaced it with the Christian Church.
Romans
2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
Romans
9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Galatians
3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Matthew
21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Matthew
23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
1 Peter
2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
2:10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Thus the 144,000 are born again believers. And the 12 tribes/names mentioned in Rev 7 symbolize predominate traits of character. Names in the Bible usually signify a character trait. Which is probably why Dan's name is absent in Rev 7.
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Re: Who Are The Remnant?
#46448
07/01/03 07:19 PM
07/01/03 07:19 PM
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Mike, I appreciate your view, but still think you need to look a little deeper into the issue. Also read more of the texts you posted.
“1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel: 3"Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me" ? 4And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal."] 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.” Romans 11
“25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.” Rom 11
“31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD , "when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them," declares the LORD
33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD . "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD ,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD . "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
35 This is what the LORD says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar- the LORD Almighty is his name: 36 "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight," declares the LORD , "will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me."
37 This is what the LORD says: "Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done," declares the LORD .
38 "The days are coming," declares the LORD , "when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the LORD . The city will never again be uprooted or demolished." Jer 31
Based on these texts (in context) you can see the following:
1. Israel was not rejected by God or Jesus
2. Israel has only been hardened IN PART until all the gentiles that will be saved come into the faith. This means Israel’s rejection is temporary.
3. Jeremiah indicates that the new covenant with Israel, is literal with Israel and that Israel’s literal descendants will never cease to be a nation before God and again he repeats the fact that He (God) will never reject Israel.
So the truth is that Israel rejected Jesus, or God (Luke 9:22). So God did not and has not rejected Israel, it’s Israel who rejected God. However, as Paul points out, there are a number of Jews who have not rejected Jesus or God and remain true Israel. Remember, only those from the line of Jacob, who believe in Jesus, are considered “true” Israel, Romans 9:4-7.
So true Israel are those Jews who have accepted God’s grace through Jesus. They have not been rejected.
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Re: Who Are The Remnant?
#46449
07/02/03 12:52 AM
07/02/03 12:52 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Okay. But would you agree that your view does not represent the SDA view as outlined by Sister White? And in what way is your view different from the dispensational view? Also, how do you explain the 70 week prophecy of Daniel 9? Finally, who is the remnant mentioned in Rev 12?
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Re: Who Are The Remnant?
#46450
07/03/03 02:21 AM
07/03/03 02:21 AM
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Lobo,
I assume you are not a member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church which will not affect your participation here whatsoever in these visitor forums of MSDAOL.
Am I correct on this assumption?
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Re: Who Are The Remnant?
#46451
07/02/03 03:07 PM
07/02/03 03:07 PM
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quote:
Okay. But would you agree that your view does not represent the SDA view as outlined by Sister White?
Yes, I would agree with that statement. I think it probably doesn’t represent many other Christian denomination’s view on the issue either.
quote:
And in what way is your view different from the dispensational view?
I need to know more about what your understanding is of the dispensational view before I can answer. So if you could outline the basics of your understanding first, then I can better speak to it.
quote:
Also, how do you explain the 70 week prophecy of Daniel 9?
What do you mean? I don’t see where my view would conflict with this prophecy?
The 70 week prophecy relates specifically to the destruction of Jerusalem and the 1st advent of the messiah. How does this show or not show Israel’s place later in prophecy? Are you referring to the destruction of the temple, or something else? Let me know so I can address whatever it is that you are looking for?
quote:
who is the remnant mentioned in Rev 12?
Good question.
Only a few translations actual use the term “remnant”, but the point is still valid. If we take Revelation in context this group that the dragon goes after would have to be the great multitude. Notice that the 144,000 were sealed and protected, that is stated in Rev 7 and Rev 12. So the only other believers left are the gentiles or great multitude.
Now I bet you are referring to the use of “seed” or “offspring”?
Let me outline this for you:
“6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.” Rom 9
Paul here states that Israel, or those of Israel, are determined by the offspring of Isaac. Yet, to be part of God’s people in the NT and beyond one needs to be offspring of Abraham.
So this outlines two facts, Gentile Believers in Jesus are never considered Israel because they are not the offspring of Isaac, and even those who are the offspring of Isaac are not automatically considered God’s people (or seed of Abraham).
I hope you can start to see why it is not really a good thing to consider yourself Israel or spiritual Israel, because that puts you under Isaac and not Abraham. In fact, strictly speaking, Abraham is a gentile because he came before the line of Isaac.
So even in prophecy we see both the Jews and Gentile saved groups outlined as being saved but still different:
Gentiles:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," 26and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.” Hosea 1:10
Jews:
“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. 28For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality” Isaiah 10:22,23
So true Israel are those from the line of Isaac that have faith in Jesus; this makes them become Abraham’s seed. And, saved gentiles also become Abraham’s seed through faith as well. But this doesn’t make Jews into gentile or gentiles into Jews. That is why both these saved groups are listed separately in Rev 7 and why scripture states that Abraham is the father of MANY nations, not just one (Gen 17:5; Gal 3:8).
I hope this helps explain why it is consistent with scripture to believe that the remnant of Israel are in fact literally Jewish.
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Re: Who Are The Remnant?
#46452
07/03/03 12:42 AM
07/03/03 12:42 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Yesterday I posted several texts which SDA's use to teach that the Christian Church replaced the nation of Israel as God's chosen people. We believe this happened in AD 34 when the 70 week prophecy terminated. When the RCC came into power she persecuted Christians for 1260 years (538-1798 AD). A remnant emerged in the USA who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus (the spirit of prophecy). Compare Rev 12:17 and 19:10. We believe we are the remnant church mentioned in Rev 12. Our mission and message is defined in Rev 14:6-12. The 144,000 will made up of believers who embrace the 3AM's during the MOB crisis.
By dispensationalism I mean the common evangelical idea that there will be a pretrib secret rapture of Christians followed by 7 years of Jewish conversions and persecution.
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Re: Who Are The Remnant?
#46453
07/03/03 02:29 AM
07/03/03 02:29 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Revelation 12:17 clearly indicates who the remnant are: quote:
Revelation 12:17
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
What is the Testimony of Jesus Christ?
quote:
Revelation 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
The SDA church clearly preaches both. As for the pre-trib stuff this would indicate that when Christ comes he will take the saved quitely and come back again to give those who really didn't care to follow Christ another chance. This would clearly lead to dissapointment to say the least:
quote:
Revelation 22:12
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
So the reward here are for those who have perserved, kept the commandments of God, and the Testimony of Jesus Christ. The reward is given, and not given again, and again..
Mike is on point here according to what the Bible says, and it is the truth. I don't understand how a person can only think that the remnant of God are only the Jews? I read somewhere that Luke was Gentile, so not all the authors of the Bible were Jews if this is the case. However if I am wrong please do feel free to correct me on this.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Who Are The Remnant?
#46454
07/03/03 03:44 PM
07/03/03 03:44 PM
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Mike, I appreciate your belief in the SDA church and do not mean to challenge that faith. However, I think it is fair to say that there are other doctrines that are supported by scripture (I have only posted a few texts) that would and do refute the SDA position. The difference is that many use scripture in a more methodical way. In other words, scripture is always taken literal unless there is no other way to interpret the passage. This determination is not based on some extra-scriptural prophet or doctrine, but based on the entirety of scripture ONLY. This method clearly supports the continued existence of Israel and a literal 144,000 Jews. Now using this method of exegesis it also supports to some extent the pre-trib rapture. While I personally don’t feel there is enough documentation in scripture to support this view, there is more substantiating scriptural evidence to support it than you might think. I personally do not lock myself into any particular church or doctrinal belief to allow the holy spirit to use or lead my as He sees fit, not how I may or may not want Him to. But that is just me. quote:
Mike is on point here according to what the Bible says, and it is the truth. I don't understand how a person can only think that the remnant of God are only the Jews?
Will, what is the definition of a “remnant”? Look it up. It is “a piece of the whole”, “part of the original fabric”, etc. What you are missing is that scripture states specifically that it is a remnant of Israel, NOT a remnant of God’s people. Not to mention the fact that each tribe of Israel is literally stated.
So since SDA’s are not Jewish they cannot be a part or remnant of Israel, because they were never part of Israel. To be a remnant you have to have been part of the whole or original Israel at some point, SDA’s or any Christians have not.
Also, Luke was Gentile by birth, but had converted to Judaism. A convert to Judaism is accepted for the most part as a Jew. So if you want to convert to Judaism then you may have a chance at being part of the 144,000.
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Re: Who Are The Remnant?
#46455
07/03/03 06:16 PM
07/03/03 06:16 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Lobo, the scriptures I quoted earlier clearly teach that Jesus replaced the nation of Israel with the Church in AD 34. I realize you do not interpret those texts in the same way SDA's do, but our understanding of the Remnant is not based on Sister White's prophetic gift.
The fact God has not fulfilled the restoration promises on behalf of literal Israel is evidence the Church has replaced her as God's chosen nation and people. According to the Revelation the ancient restoration promises will be fulfilled on behalf of the Church in the New Earth. Thus literal Israel will never fulfill them as originally intended.
A pre-trib secret rapture does not make sense. If the issues of the great controversy have been settled enough that God can bring the Christians to heaven - then what more needs to be proven? Why delay eliminting sin and sinners in the lake of fire and establishing the New Earth? What can the Jews prove after the rapture that hasn't already been proven by the Church before the rapture?
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