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Re: Who Are The Remnant?
#46466
07/07/03 08:05 PM
07/07/03 08:05 PM
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Dear Lobo,
It was the Jewish nation that rejected God. They did so many times.
You see the candlestick of God did not stay with a nation that would reject Christ. Especially when they REFUSED to bear the light for Christ.
The modern nation of Israel which is oftened view as the true Jewish faith is the one that did not accept Christ as their Saviour. It was about three years later after they REFUSED Christ as the Messiah that they were no longer given the message because of their desire to reject what they had been waiting for all their lives. [AGAIN NOTE: They (the general population of the Jewish nation)rejected God, not God them.]
The Church of God has never stopped being. You see even after Christ died the believers in Christ were a "sect" like Pharisees were a "sect" WITHIN the Jewish faith. So to consider that those which are Gentiles are not worthy of the same promies is prejudice once again.
Look in Romans 11 it teaches that we are adopted into the same vine and our father Abraham is literally our father too. Therefore the Lord's promise is kept even with the Gentile nation as they being GRAFTED in.
Note: GRAFTED IN. So while the general population of Jewish people rejected Christ. The church which was still Jewish was being added into daily. Here is where the prejudice lays, in one thinking that it takes BLOOD to make one worthy to be of acceptance. Here is what Christ said to the bloodline. Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Today the true modern Israel (God's true church) accepts Christ Jesus and keeps faith in all that He taught and keeps the commandments of God. It is by the works we are His, and we are only able to do His works because we accept the power. There is no differce between the Jew and the Gentile.
Again Greetings,
Sr. Cheri
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Re: Who Are The Remnant?
#46467
07/07/03 09:47 PM
07/07/03 09:47 PM
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Cheri, thanks for your response. You have stated some many different issues in your post I think it best that I answer each one individually. quote:
It was the Jewish nation that rejected God. They did so many times.
You see the candlestick of God did not stay with a nation that would reject Christ. Especially when they REFUSED to bear the light for Christ.
True, the Jewish nation as a whole did reject God, God never rejected them. In fact, God still calls to them in their disobedience (Romans 11:30-31).
As for the “candlestick of God”, I would agree with that also. In the past it was through Israel that man could get to know the true God. Now, that is not the case. However, where I think you error is thinking that this new group who is now charged with being God’s witness is called Israel, I will address this later.
quote:
The Church of God has never stopped being. You see even after Christ died the believers in Christ were a "sect" like Pharisees were a "sect" WITHIN the Jewish faith. So to consider that those which are Gentiles are not worthy of the same promies is prejudice once again.
I’m not sure why you are saying that. I never indicated that gentiles were not worthy of salvation. What you are doing is making a discussion about prophecy into one about salvation, they are not the same thing.
We are talking about who the literal 144,000 are and what role literal Israel has in prophecy. This has nothing to do with gentiles not being saved. Gentiles are saved based on faith like everyone else and Israel having a role in prophecy or being the 144,000 doesn’t change or affect that one bit.
In reality this argument is about “who will be greatest” in the kingdom all over again. Notice that all the disciples would be in the kingdom (saved), which is the same for Jew and Gentile.
Now, what you are asserting is basically that literal Jews will not be the greatest in the kingdom. And I, not even a Jew, do not agree because I don’t see that idea supported in scripture.
So what you are arguing about is not who will be saved, but who will be the greatest of the saved. Knowing this, do you still want to argue about who will be greatest in the kingdom?
quote:
Look in Romans 11 it teaches that we are adopted into the same vine and our father Abraham is literally our father too. Therefore the Lord's promise is kept even with the Gentile nation as they being GRAFTED in.
This is very true, but I doubt you realize why Paul used the symbolism of an olive tree? The reason is this; Israel is a cultivated olive tree and the gentiles are a wild olive branch (Rom 11:24). So gentiles, being grafted into the tree, is “contrary to nature”.
Now when a branch is grafted into something it never becomes the thing it is grafted to. In other words, grafting an apple tree branch into a pear tree will never change the apple branch into a pear branch or cause the apple branch to produce pears.
So even in Paul’s grafted analogy he has separated Jew from gentile. Both are saved or nourished by the root (which is Jesus), but both remain separate as well.
So yes indeed we are grafted in to the tree of Jesus, but just like a wild olive branch will never become a cultivated branch through grafting, so to we (Gentiles) will never become Israel Israel.
quote:
Note: GRAFTED IN. So while the general population of Jewish people rejected Christ. The church which was still Jewish was being added into daily. Here is where the prejudice lays, in one thinking that it takes BLOOD to make one worthy to be of acceptance. Here is what Christ said to the bloodline. Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
I would suggest that you read more in-depth on this issue as you have many misconceptions about Israel.
First, being Jewish was never about bloodline as there were many Gentiles who became Jewish or became Israel by converting to Judaism (Isaiah 56:1-8, Acts 2:11; 13:43, etc..). So anyone who converted to Judaism regardless of not being a Jew by Blood could become part of literal Israel.
Next, although literal Israel felt that they were descendants from Abraham, that idea is not correct according to Paul. Paul tells us that the literal descendants of Abraham are not counted as his seed unless they are believers in Jesus (Rom 9:8). Paul also tells us that literal Israel is counted as descendants of Isaac, not Abraham (Rom 9:7).
So non-believing Jews are descendants of Isaac, not Abraham. ONLY Jews who believe in Jesus are counted as Abraham’s seed. This goes the same for Gentiles (Gal 3:29).
quote:
Today the true modern Israel (God's true church) accepts Christ Jesus and keeps faith in all that He taught and keeps the commandments of God. It is by the works we are His, and we are only able to do His works because we accept the power. There is no differce between the Jew and the Gentile.
You are in error. God’s true church today is not called Israel. We CANNOT be saved if we are under the line of Isaac alone. Only those under Abraham can be saved.
So God’s true church is “the people of God” or the “kingdom of heaven”, but NEVER Israel.
As I have previously pointed out, the fact mentioned many times in scripture is that gentiles and Jews are different in terms of their role in prophecy. Again, this is not about being saved but about what your role is and where you end up IN the kingdom.
So what you really need to ask yourself is why you are arguing about who will be greatest in the kingdom? Remember what Jesus stated: “whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven”. Trying to tear others down is not a good way to reach this goal.
As I mentioned, scripture, from Genesis to Revelation separates Jew from gentile and this was predicted in the OT as well:
Gentile believers:
‘"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"26and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.” Hosea 1:10
Jewish believers:
“"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. 28For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality." Isaiah 10:22,23
So no matter how you slice it, while we are all saved through Jesus only literal Jews who believe in Jesus will be in the 144,000 at the end. We gentiles will be the “great multitude”.
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Re: Who Are The Remnant?
#46468
07/08/03 10:21 AM
07/08/03 10:21 AM
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Greetings Lobo,
To help clarify, I have not made an argument but beared my testimony.
I cannot agree with your testimony.
Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: (35) But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Acts 10:34,35
God calls clean the Gentiles because of their faith. To say that their father Abraham has better blood than the Gentiles is prejuidice, God Himself taught Br. Peter to not distinguish between Jew and Gentile.
I realize your difficulty is one of saying literal. But God pulled in all the people that He will save and distinguishes their them by their hearts.
What makes a person the seed of Abraham. It is faith in Christ Jesus, then we are literally equal, even if our eyes only see heritage. Christ was very clear about doing good works above lineage.
Note: Adoption. When a parent truly knows how to love, the differences of the children are not by blood but by each one being individually in character different from the other. The adopted child brings into the family the same requirements to a family; and the family asks of the same from them as the other children. Love is a deep bond that does not have prejuidice.
What you are convicted of ...that is between you and the Lord.
Sr. Cheri
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Re: Who Are The Remnant?
#46469
07/08/03 05:03 PM
07/08/03 05:03 PM
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Cheri, thanks for the response, I appreciate your willingness to continue to discuss this issue even though we disagree. quote:
I cannot agree with your testimony.
Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: (35) But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Acts 10:34,35
God calls clean the Gentiles because of their faith. To say that their father Abraham has better blood than the Gentiles is prejuidice, God Himself taught Br. Peter to not distinguish between Jew and Gentile.
Cheri, I feel you still do not understand what I’m saying. I fully agree that God accepts everyone that comes to Him. As I have stated before, this is NOT about salvation. Also, I already proved from scripture that it is not about bloodline, so I don’t understand why you keep saying this?
Please understand this; I’M SAYING THAT LITERAL ISRAEL IS ISRAEL IN PROPHECY. That is my entire point. PLEASE understand that this has NOTHING to do with salvation or being accepted by God.
Cheri, in reading the rest of your post I see you really do not understand what I am saying. So to prevent further miscommunication, I would ask that maybe someone else on this forum explain to you what I am saying, because I don’t seem to be getting through.
Thanks
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Re: Who Are The Remnant?
#46470
07/09/03 12:27 PM
07/09/03 12:27 PM
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Greetings Lobo, I fully understand that you are talking literal which means the direct bloodline from Abraham. You are saying that there is still a line of distinction between bloodlines. But the God that I know does not draw the line of prejuidice like this. He teaches that we are all clean if we are coming to Him. This is why the promise is given to all those that come into His family. Perhaps you truly do not have a good experience with adoption. Because if you did then you would know that love does not distinguish which child has come up from out of the roots and which one has been added. True love does not seek out to divide what it has brought together. The love of God for us to understand is one of a parent, that is why we learn to call upon God the Father. Here is an explanation of adoption: quote:
An Adoption Order severs all legal ties with the birth family and confers parental rights and responsibilities on the new adoptive family. The birth parents no longer have any legal rights over the child and they are not entitled to claim him back. Your child becomes a full member of your family; he takes your surname and assumes the same rights and privileges as if he had been born to you, including the right of inheritance.
Adoption by God is giving us the same equal rights, there is no line of distinction. So when one is adopted it is literally with all the perks of rights.
I speak of love. God teaches love. Love does not divide so that His children could learn prejuidice but to be the heirs of the promise literally.
If you are truly convicted that God does not literally give the same promise (even with the last call which is those that keep the faith of Jesus and the commandments of Christ...that is also known as modern Israel which bears no testimony of prejuidice) that is your choice. But love does not do this. Love is a standard that is giving beyond what we deserve.
God kept His promise and brought the Gentiles into the promise because of their faith. The promise is to be of the same family in heaven that is established on earth.
Now you made mention that He taught the Gentiles differently. Well consider this. They had no true upbringing in truth, they would need step by step education. Do you know that a new born Christian was considered a babe? They had to learn how to grow up, but this time in Christ Jesus...hence born again. The Jewish nation had the privilege of having generation after generation of truth to be taught within their home, but the Gentiles did not.
Perhaps if you focus more on born again you will understand that having a blood line does not mean genetics, but condition of the heart. Greetings,
Sr. Cheri
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Re: Who Are The Remnant?
#46471
07/10/03 02:06 AM
07/10/03 02:06 AM
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quote:
I fully understand that you are talking literal which means the direct bloodline from Abraham.
You are saying that there is still a line of distinction between bloodlines.
Cheri, with all due respect, you do not understand because that is NOT what I’m saying. NO BLOODLINE!
Not even in the OT was bloodline the determining factor as gentiles who converted to Judaism were then accepted AS ISRAEL.
So PLEASE stop saying that I’m talking about bloodline, I am NOT!
It’s about adhering to the OT Mosaic covenant between Israel and God that God stated would be forever (Ex 31:17). So if you want to be one of the 144,000 just convert to Judaism.
As for the rest of your post I am at a lost to respond as you continue to talk about issues that are not part of our discussion. For example, you still think I’m talking about salvation, when I have stated several times that this distinction is purely about prophecy.
In addition, you appear to believe in a doctrine that feels good to you, but that is not supported, and in fact is refuted by much of scripture.
I’m at a loss to discuss this with you because you don’t appear to rely on scripture as your foundation for beliefs, so I don’t know how to speak to that. Without a common ground like scripture to start from we can never have a meaningful dialog.
In any case, I will reiterate my position one last time:
All are saved through Jesus the same way, Jew and Gentile. However, because of the promises God made to Israel long ago, Israel has a different place and role in prophecy and in the kingdom of God. That doesn’t mean they are better, just different. As Paul states we all have different roles in the “body” or church, this is the very same thing. In addition, this is what scripture LITERALLY states.
144,000 = Literal Jews who believe in Jesus
Great multitude = Gentiles who believe in Jesus
Babylon = Jews who do not believe in Jesus
Kings of the earth = Gentiles who do not believe in Jesus
I could posy all the supporting texts, but I doubt you would even notice or care, so I’m not going to bother.
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Re: Who Are The Remnant?
#46472
07/10/03 02:53 AM
07/10/03 02:53 AM
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Greetings Lobo,
Perhaps you do not understand that in Revelation 6:17 asks who is going to stand through out this sixth seal. It is quite clear that only 144,000 are going to be a holy priesthood. That others are going to be pulled into this fold during this time, but the number of them is 144,000
Babylon...In short I gather you have much different doctrines than what is taught even in the modern SDA Church and according to what I read.
I have known the type of doctrine you speak, and I do not keep faith with it because it is prejuidice.
And Lobo, those that are called out of Babylon are modern Jews via adoption. Because those that love Him keep His commandments.
Now I see that this is upsetting you so I will back off and give you space,
May the Lord open all our eyes with salve that we fail not to see, yes that is even meant for my eyes too Lobo, if there is truth and I have not seen it even like Br. Saul long ago, I know that God will not deny me all truth so that I not fail.
Greetings Sr. Cheri
[ July 09, 2003, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: Cheri Fritz ]
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Re: Who Are The Remnant?
#46473
07/09/03 08:45 PM
07/09/03 08:45 PM
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quote:
Perhaps you do not understand that in Revelation 6:17 asks who is going to stand through out this sixth seal. It is quite clear that only 144,000 are going to be a holy priesthood. That others are going to be pulled into this fold during this time, but the number of them is 144,000
Sorry Cheri, I don’t see the term holy priesthood used in Rev 6:17 or in all of Rev 6 for that matter. Where are you getting that idea?
Also, there is no scripture anywhere to indicate that anyone is being “pulled” into the 144,000.
quote:
Babylon...In short I gather you have much different doctrines than what is taught even in the modern SDA Church and according to what I read.
Cheri, just as God is no respecter of persons in relation to the gospel, I’m no respecter of man-made doctrines. My doctrine does not come out of any particular religious affiliation, as all churches are man made and as such imperfect. My beliefs are between God and I.
So if a particular church doctrine happens to be the same as my belief, great. If not, oh well.
You need to understand that no church leader or denomination has a more direct line to God than you. So the truth you discover on your own is just as valid and probably less biased than any doctrine that comes out of the SDA church; or any church for that matter.
So don’t look to man, look to God.
quote:
I have known the type of doctrine you speak, and I do not keep faith with it because it is prejuidice and I do not believe that our God said that Babylon is good...just read the scripture we are being called out of there to be partakers of the promise.
I guess you think God choosing Israel out of all other people was prejudice as well?
“For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.” Duet 7:6
I guess this makes God prejudice? You may want to rethink your position.
quote:
And Lobo, those that are called out of Babylon are modern Jews via adoption. Because those that love Him keep His commandments.
Those that are called out of Babylon at the end are literal Jews, because it is the 144,000 saved Jews who are calling them out.
Just to give you a quick prophecy lesson, Babylon is the nation of people "who have killed all the prophets of God since the beginning of the world", Rev 18:24. And guess who Jesus stated has done the same very thing? Israel! (Luke 11:47-51, Rom 11:2-3, 1 Thess 2:14-15)
So while you may think Babylon is something else because the church tells you it is, Jesus and Paul know the truth and have provided it for you if you have the courage to believe.
As for getting upset, no, just frustrated. I’m frustrated because I hoped to have a dialog based on literal scripture and not what the church states or what you appear to blindly believe because the church states it.
So I hope at some point that you can use scripture as your ultimate authority instead of the church.
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Re: Who Are The Remnant?
#46474
07/15/03 11:01 AM
07/15/03 11:01 AM
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Posted by Mike Lowe.
Only those commandments which the Church of Christ are supposed to keep and obey - the ten moral commandments and all the applicable levitcal laws (minus the ones that dealt exclusively with the nation of Israel).
Unquote.
Does it means then, that the Church of Christ are a bunch of people who were under the Law?
Are you aware, that those who were under the Law were under the “curse” of the Law? Are you aware, that the Ten moral Commandments engraved on stone tablets is a law that kills, keeping it would only lead you to condemnation and death?
In His love
James S
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Re: Who Are The Remnant?
#46475
07/15/03 01:34 PM
07/15/03 01:34 PM
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James and whoever else:
This is not the topic in which to discuss the ins and outs of the 10 Commandments. There are already existing topic(s) for that purpose, therefore, any future posts on this that isn't clearly brought into proper connection with this topic will be deleted.
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