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Re: God: The Holy Spirit
#47771
01/02/06 07:48 PM
01/02/06 07:48 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I'm still not understanding the testify question. How could the Spirit choose not to testify of Himself if He is not an individual Being with the capability of choosing to His will or not? Similarly the statement that says the Spirit searches the mind of God, implies the Spirit functions differently than the mind of God itself, or else the mind of God would simply be searching itself.
I understand that there is mystery to the Holy Spirit, and that God has chosen not to reveal His nature to us to a great degree, and would should not speculate beyong what is revealed (and it seems clear to me that you, Colin, are attempting to do this, as well as the others here). However, it does seem to me that God has chosen to reveal to us that the Holy Spirit is an individual capable of independent thought. If not, God's certainly been confusing on this topic, it seems to me, as I would think that there would be clearer ways of communicating the thought than by speaking of three persons. I need to be careful in how I'm saying this, because far be it from me to set myself up as a judge of God; I'm simply stating that from my point of view the expressions that we find in inspiration appear to suggest to me very strongly that the Holy Spirit is an individual being capable of independent thought.
To speak of the soul analogy, if there were a soul which existed outside the body, and one could float to heaven, as many Protestants believe, then the body would be nothing but a shell. The essence of the person would be in the soul, or spirit; nothing important would be in the body. That is to say, that which makes a person the person he is, the ability to think, to fell, to act, would be present in the floating part alone -- not in the body to the least extent. So if the Holy Spirit has these characteristics (of being like the soul or spirit in the analogy), then that would leave the Father without the ability to think, to feel, to act. So it seems to me the analogy has big problems.
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Re: God: The Holy Spirit
#47772
01/03/06 04:39 PM
01/03/06 04:39 PM
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Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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quote:
Originally posted by västergötland:
Sure, a person normally has a body. Also, a person normally cannot create anything out of nothing, live for eternity by default or repeatedly claim to be God without being eligeble for the insane assylum..
I thought one of the things Jesus sacraficed when becoming human was the state of existence God lives in and getting a human body, the creator making himself part of the created. If God has a body like we do, I would have to reevaluate exactly what God really did create, becourse in that case "everything that was made" could not include everything that exists outside of God.
/Thomas
Jesus gave up the prerogatives of God - omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence for certain - any other bits it seems we can't be dogmatic about, but, after his glorification - i.e. resurrection - omnipotence was restored to him with "all authority", and we know omnipresence was restored, too, since he sent us his Spirit. He did not give up his divine personality or his right to his place in heaven with his Father, though regaining his place in heaven should be the right word for, as he depended on dying righteously for us here first, in order to 'return' - thus "returning" isn't the real word for it. The Father has no knowledge or experience of being human as his Son now does, but his Son continues now to exist as God does, since he is God, too...bearing in mind that his life here was human, not divine.
And, they both started out with bodies. Those aren't created bodies, but everyone else's body is.
[ January 03, 2006, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: Colin ]
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Re: God: The Holy Spirit
#47773
01/03/06 04:59 PM
01/03/06 04:59 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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As has been pointed out in several other posts recently, this is all just speculating. I guess Jesus present body is the only one we can say anything at all about since He took one like our own.
/Thomas
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Re: God: The Holy Spirit
#47774
01/03/06 05:23 PM
01/03/06 05:23 PM
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Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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No speculation on this issue, Thomas, and you are thinking in the wrong direction:
"God said,'Let us make man in our own image.'"
Our bodies are like God's body...
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Re: God: The Holy Spirit
#47775
01/03/06 05:37 PM
01/03/06 05:37 PM
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Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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quote:
Originally posted by Rosangela:
quote:
I've always understood the explanation of local church leaders to be that what the Spirit hears from God is what as God's Spirit he says to us. Were you looking for more meaning than that?
Colin,
A person hearing something from another person is OK; a presence hearing something from the original being does not make any sense whatsoever.
Now, now: I never said that. God's Spirit is more than his presence among us and in us. He bring us God's presence, but he isn't just God's presence, since he is a personality. The unanimous voice of our church on this issue during Ellen White's lifetime is being totally ignored here, yet with them the Spirit's personality is affirmed as a person like God is, in the context that it is God's omnipresence and bring us God's presence so doesn't have the appearance God made us in the image of.
If we can't uderstand that, that's what we're supposed to conclude, since we can't understand it: the Spirit proceeds from Father & Son, and is their divine Spirit: that's Biblical revelation; our trinitarian teaching wants him to be "God the Holy Spirit" (not a Biblical title) without any link to Father or Son and without any other reasonable basis for them not being 3 gods.
The Spirit is both a personality and God's spiritual presence: we're told not to understand that in any normal sense, so why do you trinitarians all insist on this 'any normal sense' for the Spirit's personhood?
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Re: God: The Holy Spirit
#47776
01/03/06 06:08 PM
01/03/06 06:08 PM
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Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
I'm still not understanding the testify question. How could the Spirit choose not to testify of Himself if He is not an individual Being with the capability of choosing to His will or not? Similarly the statement that says the Spirit searches the mind of God, implies the Spirit functions differently than the mind of God itself, or else the mind of God would simply be searching itself.
I understand that there is mystery to the Holy Spirit, and that God has chosen not to reveal His nature to us to a great degree, and would should not speculate beyong what is revealed (and it seems clear to me that you, Colin, are attempting to do this, as well as the others here). However, it does seem to me that God has chosen to reveal to us that the Holy Spirit is an individual capable of independent thought. If not, God's certainly been confusing on this topic, it seems to me, as I would think that there would be clearer ways of communicating the thought than by speaking of three persons. I need to be careful in how I'm saying this, because far be it from me to set myself up as a judge of God; I'm simply stating that from my point of view the expressions that we find in inspiration appear to suggest to me very strongly that the Holy Spirit is an individual being capable of independent thought.
To speak of the soul analogy, if there were a soul which existed outside the body, and one could float to heaven, as many Protestants believe, then the body would be nothing but a shell. The essence of the person would be in the soul, or spirit; nothing important would be in the body. That is to say, that which makes a person the person he is, the ability to think, to fell, to act, would be present in the floating part alone -- not in the body to the least extent. So if the Holy Spirit has these characteristics (of being like the soul or spirit in the analogy), then that would leave the Father without the ability to think, to feel, to act. So it seems to me the analogy has big problems.
Is "person" for the Holy Spirit the same as "being", for it? Our church literature of EGW's day says no, you say yes. They say that since the Spirit isn't a person like Father and Son but is a person as much as God. You appear to argue it is a person like them, since that is the ordinary meaning (you insist on such meanings) of a "being".
The Bible reveals the Spirit as personally active with God's presence, as well as manifesting just God's power: that amounts to a person but not in the normal sense - you're pushing for the normal sense, aren't you? I'm not. So, where do you see me going beyond Biblical revelation... ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif)
That soul analogy was a misnomer in the first place, as Thomas was trying to find my position without agreeing with it himself. I don't agree with it, either ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif) ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif) .
My position remains, with our pioneers - including Sister White - as I have read them, that God's Spirit is neither his soul nor his mind, but indeed searches his mind as his Spirit, which is a person with a personality and consciousness but not like Father or Son since it is the divine Spirit and not a second 'Son' or any other person in the normal sense of person. Just the divine Spirit, with a conscious self, but it assists Father and Son to live harmoniously, since it is naturally their Spirit and it supports divinity naturally, while it supports us supernaturally.
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Re: God: The Holy Spirit
#47777
01/03/06 07:53 PM
01/03/06 07:53 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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quote:
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
quote:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
quote:
4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water.
How, or by whom was earth created? God/Father, Jesus/Word or the Spirit able to fly over water?
/Thomas
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Re: God: The Holy Spirit
#47778
01/03/06 08:26 PM
01/03/06 08:26 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
bearing in mind that his life here was human, not divine.
His life here was both human and divine, wasn't it? As it continues to be to this day?
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Re: God: The Holy Spirit
#47779
01/03/06 08:32 PM
01/03/06 08:32 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
The Spirit is both a personality and God's spiritual presence: we're told not to understand that in any normal sense, so why do you trinitarians all insist on this 'any normal sense' for the Spirit's personhood?
I've never claimed to be a trinitarian. I don't particularly like that term. I'm a "Godheadian".
The Spirit of Prophecy speaks of three persons, not simply of the Holy Spirit as a personality. He also does many things which we associate with individuals, such as testifying, or not, of Himself, grieving, being joyful, etc. You have a concept of this which seems to be analagous to a remote control device, which God, or Christ, somehow projects Himself through some out of body experience. It seems more "natural" to me to conceive of the Holy Spirit as an individual who can choose to act in harmony with the Father's will or not.
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Re: God: The Holy Spirit
#47780
01/03/06 08:51 PM
01/03/06 08:51 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Is "person" for the Holy Spirit the same as "being", for it? Our church literature of EGW's day says no, you say yes. They say that since the Spirit isn't a person like Father and Son but is a person as much as God. You appear to argue it is a person like them, since that is the ordinary meaning (you insist on such meanings) of a "being".
No, I wasn't dealing with the ordinary meaning of "being" but of "person". All persons are beings, but not all beings are persons. The Holy Spirit is called a "person", which means He is a being.
quote:
The Bible reveals the Spirit as personally active with God's presence, as well as manifesting just God's power: that amounts to a person but not in the normal sense - you're pushing for the normal sense, aren't you? I'm not. So, where do you see me going beyond Biblical revelation.
The Holy Spirit is not simply revealed as a personality, but as a person. The normal sense of "person" I'm pushing for is in the sense of what "person" conveys. The Holy Spirit is a divine person, so of course that sets Him apart from non-divine persons. However, this difference is due to His being divine, not due to His personhood.
quote:
That soul analogy was a misnomer in the first place, as Thomas was trying to find my position without agreeing with it himself. I don't agree with it, either.
Ok.
quote:
My position remains, with our pioneers - including Sister White - as I have read them, that God's Spirit is neither his soul nor his mind, but indeed searches his mind as his Spirit, which is a person with a personality and consciousness but not like Father or Son since it is the divine Spirit and not a second 'Son' or any other person in the normal sense of person.
Ellen White said the Holy Spirit is not like the Father or Son, or any other person in the normal sense of person? Where did she write that?
quote:
Just the divine Spirit, with a conscious self, but it assists Father and Son to live harmoniously, since it is naturally their Spirit and it supports divinity naturally, while it supports us supernaturally.
The Spirit of Prophecy, speaking of the Holy Spirit, says He is a divine person, and has a personality. She speaks of three persons of the Godhead. I don't see how these statements can co-exist with the idea that He is not an individual who can assert His own will.
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