Tom, I'm just curious, have you ever heard of Fred Wright (from Australia) and Mike Clute? Some things you have said reminds me of things they say...on the character of Christ. Have you read their material? Have a good day! Tammy

Yes, I'm somewhat familiar with both. Mike Clute passed by a church I was intending many years ago. He didn't make that favorable an impression on me, although some of his ideas struck me as interesting at the time, although I can't remember what they were.

F.T. Wright reminds me a lot of what Ty Gibson writes. I see the same principles in both of their writings. Wright applies things a bit differently to some situations.

Tom, please show me where the holy angels do not praise God with rejoicing for unleashing the seven last plagues on the unsaved sinners. If this seems unlovely to us then obviously something is wrong with our perception.

Revelation 16
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. 6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. 7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

Revelation 18
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

MM, please answer the 5 questions I asked you (well, I assume you've read Hosea 11, so you can skip that one if you want, but please answer the other 4).

The rejoicing being spoken of is after every tear is wiped away. It's because sin will be no more. It's not because our loved ones have been lost. Perish the thought! Noone will be sadder than God, as He loves with as much greater capacity and intensity as the heavens are above the earth.

1. Have you read Hosea 11?

Yes. God obviously loves His chosen children.

2. Do you think God thinks of those who reject Him as enemies or children?

In the cases of non-Jews in the OT He considered them His enemies. Please read the OT.

3. If your child rejects you, do you cease to think of him/her as a child?

No. In the cases of some elses children it's a different matter.

4. Will you rejoice if your child is among the wicked and gets destroyed?

I cannot imagine it now but I believe my response will harmonize with that of the holy angels. If I were Hitler's father I suspect I would rejoice with the holy angels.

5. Assuming you would weep for your lost child, do you think God would weep less than you?

Is it possible to weep and rejoice at the same time? I think so.

6. Consider how Jesus wept for Jerusalem.

And yet Jesus do not restrain the Romans from executing His will, right?

PS - The passages I posted above refer to the rejoicing that occurs during the seven last plagues. The last part of Revelation 14 describes the 144,000 praying for the death and destruction of unsaved sinners in the seven last plagues. Can you imagine yourself praying this prayer if your child was one of the unsaved sinners?

Revelation 14
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

1. Have you read Hosea 11?

Yes. God obviously loves His chosen children.

God loves everyone. God so loved the world that He gave His Son.

The point I was addressing in referring to Hos. 11 was "How can I give you up?" That's how God will feel. It's utterly astounding to me that you (or anyone) could have a view of God's character that does not incorporate this aspect of Hos. 11 into it.

This is how God the Father felt when Christ was dying on the cross. This is how He will feel when His children are lost forever.

2. Do you think God thinks of those who reject Him as enemies or children?

In the cases of non-Jews in the OT He considered them His enemies. Please read the OT.

The OT is full of examples of God seeking out His children, of whatever race. Your view of exclusivity seems to me mirroring that of the Pharisees, but this was not God's view. Witness how Christ in His ministry visited the despised Samaritans and other Gentiles. Jesus demonstrated the heart of God clearly.

The same things that Jesus taught can be seen in the OT (after all, that's where Christ got His teachings from), but why not look to Christ first? Once you see the truth as it is in Jesus, then you can view the OT through "Jesus glasses" and have some chance of understanding it correctly.

Jesus did not demonstrate any of the exclusivity you are suggesting. He considered of all humanity God's children; not the Jews only, and the others enemies. That was the Jews' idea, not Christ.


3. If your child rejects you, do you cease to think of him/her as a child?

No. In the cases of some elses children it's a different matter.

All of God's children are His children, which includes everyone, even those who reject Him.

4. Will you rejoice if your child is among the wicked and gets destroyed?

I cannot imagine it now but I believe my response will harmonize with that of the holy angels. If I were Hitler's father I suspect I would rejoice with the holy angels.

5. Assuming you would weep for your lost child, do you think God would weep less than you?

Is it possible to weep and rejoice at the same time? I think so.

Good observation. The righteous will weep for God's children who are lost, and especially for their loved ones and friends. They will rejoice that sin is coming to an end.

6. Consider how Jesus wept for Jerusalem.

And yet Jesus do not restrain the Romans from executing His will, right?

It wasn't God's will that was executed, but Satan's:

quote:

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The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work.

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I wish the deceiver were less successful.

Folks,

How do you see this text and EGW passage fitting into your beliefs and this discussion?

Isa 53:4 - Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. (NASB)

The SDA commentary writes about that:

quote:

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Smitten of God. The enemy made it appear that the sufferings of Jesus were punishment inflicted upon Him by a vengeful God because He was a sinner (see DA 471). If that were true, He could not be the world's Redeemer.

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DA 471 reads:

quote:

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It was generally believed by the Jews that sin is punished in this life. Every afflication was regarded as the penalty of some wrongdoing, either of the sufferer himself or of his parents. It is true that all suffering results from the transgression of God's law, but this truth had become perverted. Satan, the author of sin and all its results, had led men to look upon disease and death as proceeding from God, -- as punishment arbitrarily inflicted on account of sin. Hence one upon whom some great affliction or calamity had fallen had the additional burden of being regarded as a great sinner.

Thus the way was prepared for the Jews to reject Jesus."

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Tom, are you suggesting that Satan urged on the Romans against the direct decree of Jesus not to?

Joy, what do you think?

Welcome to the thread Joy! You've hit upon a key verse, one which points out the wrong way of looking at things (God did this to Him; the way we saw things) and the right way (we did this to God).

Here's something George Fifield said about this:

quote:

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This is the at-one-ment; this is why He bore our griefs and carried our sorrows, that He might do that for us by breaking down all those things which separate hearts from hearts, both human and divine. Notwishstanding this, we did esteem Him striken smitten of God, and afflicted. That was what we thought about it. We said, God is doing all this; God is killing Him, punishing Him, to satisfy His wrath, in order to let us off. That is the pagan conception of sacrifice. The Christian idea of sacrifice is this. Let us not the contrast. "God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." That is the Christian idea. Yes, sir. Indifference keeps, hatred keeps, selfishness keeps, or gives, if at all, but grudgingly, counting the cost, and figuring on some larger return at some future time. But love, and love only, sacrifices, gives freely, gives itself, gives without counting the cost; gives because it is love. That is sacrifice, whether it is the sacrifice of bulls and goats, or of Him who is the Lamb of God. It is the sacrifice that is revealed throughout the entire Bible. But the pagan idea of sacrifice is just the opposite. It is that god is always offended, always angry, and His wrath must be propitiated in some way....

I pray that God will let the sunlight of His truth shine into my heart, and into all of our hearts. Surely He hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows that He might bring us to Him; but we esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. That is what we thought; that is what we esteemed; not what was, but what we thought was. Now, every text in the Bible that speaks of reconciliation, makes God the one who makes the reconciliation,-- God in Christ. Every text in the Bible that speaks of the atonement, when we get it right, makes God the one who makes the atonement in Christ; not Christ simply, but God in Christ; just as God in Christ creates, redeems, reconciles, He makes the atonement. And every time the atonement, reconciliation, or propitiation are mentioned, it leads us right back to the character of God.(1897 GCB)

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I'm suggesting what I wrote:

It wasn't God's will that was executed, but Satan's:

quote:

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The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work.

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I wish the deceiver were less successful.

The principles are right here, MM. Just read the paragraph point by point and you've got it. Bear in mind that it is Satan who presents their destruction as a direct decree of God.