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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48012
03/04/06 12:53 PM
03/04/06 12:53 PM
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SDA
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Southwest USA
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Tom, this insight tells me that the Jews destroyed themselves. If I were to take it literally I would be forced to rewrite history. The fact is, though, the Romans destroyed the Jews.
The question I must ask myself is did the Romans destroy the Jews against the will of God? Did Jesus sit back and allow the Devil to use the Romans to destroy the Jews against the will of God? In other words, did Satan get away with something that our heavenly Father didn't want to happen?
The answers to these questions are obvious to me. Jesus gave the Devil permission to use the Romans to destroy the Jews because the Jews refused to cooperate with God to fulfill their destiny as His chosen people and nation. Sad but true.
The Devil is NOT free to wreak havoc in this world without the express permission of God Almighty. God is on control. Always has been - alway will be.
GC 614
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48013
03/05/06 01:25 AM
03/05/06 01:25 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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Why should one insist on looking at things in such a way as to put God in as negative light as possible? God is not looking to destroy anybody. He was not using Satan to carry out His will.
God's will is that none should perish, but that all should be saved. God's will is only the well being and happiness of all His children. Always and without exception.
But happiness can only be found by following the principles of God's government. Not because God has arbitrarily decreed such, but because His principles are the principles of life.
When one refuses God, one refuses His protection. When one turns oneself over to the control, only bad things can happen, because, unlike God, the evil one is evil, and he does seek to destroy.
Here's the quote: quote:
The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control.
We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan.
Let's take a look at the principles here:
1)The Jews destroyed themselves.
2)The reaped what they sowed.
3)Their sufferings are often represented as the direct decree of God.
4)It is thus that the great deceiver conceals his work.
5)The horrible cruelties of Jerusalem show what happens to those who give themselves over to Satan's vindictive power.
6)God's restraining power protects all mankind.
7)God's mercy and power holds in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one.
8)God does not execute sentence on the transgressor, but leaves him to reap what he has sown.
9)The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner.
MM, this should be sufficient to see the truth.
With this foundation set, let's look at your observations and questions.
Tom, this insight tells me that the Jews destroyed themselves. If I were to take it literally I would be forced to rewrite history.
There's no need to guess how to take this quote. The meaning is clearly explained. They destroyed themselves, reaping what they had sown, by persistently resisting the Spirit of God, until at last He withdrew, leaving them under the control of Satan.
The fact is, though, the Romans destroyed the Jews.
The question I must ask myself is did the Romans destroy the Jews against the will of God?
If you're speaking of the permissive will of God, clearly God permitted these terrible things to happen. If you're speaking of God's active will, the answer is yes, the Romans destroyed the Jews against the will of God. They followed Satan's will.
What one should understand is that Satan's will is contrary to God's will. Satan is not God's puppet.
Did Jesus sit back and allow the Devil to use the Romans to destroy the Jews against the will of God? In other words, did Satan get away with something that our heavenly Father didn't want to happen?
Just read the quote, MM. It explains that happened. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, was finally withdrawn, leaving the Jews to suffer under the vindictive power of Satan.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48014
03/06/06 12:08 AM
03/06/06 12:08 AM
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New Member (Starting to Post)
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 7
USA
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Tom: Great quotes! It makes perfect sense to me. But then I don't think of salvation occuring in a legalistic framework. It seems that when we can learn to stand back and take a look at the whole of the message of the Bible there is, sadly, an ever re-occuring theme that God's human creation consistently misreads and misjudges God and makes Him out to have the characteristics of Satan himself - vengeful, exacting and severe. That's what I believe will have to be overcome before Christ can return. The message that will be the last message on this planet will be about God and His great mercy.
MM: I was hoping to hear your interpretation of the text and how it fit in to your beliefs.
Have a Joyful and blessed week and may we all have a clearer picture of God.
Joy
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48015
03/06/06 12:58 AM
03/06/06 12:58 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Joy, I agree completely, and couldn't say it better!
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48016
03/06/06 02:22 AM
03/06/06 02:22 AM
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Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
Mat 12:44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
Mat 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
Once the house was left desolate, empty; who came in to inhabit it?
2Co 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial?
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48017
03/07/06 03:21 AM
03/07/06 03:21 AM
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SDA
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Of course it is God's desire that everyone be saved in heaven. But it was Jesus Himself who said that the majority will be lost. Jesus gives evil angels permission to destroy unsaved sinners. There are times, too, when He commands holy angels to destroy them. Either way the will of God is being served.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48018
03/06/06 06:02 PM
03/06/06 06:02 PM
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Active Member 2012
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E. Oregon, USA
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quote:
Originally posted by Joy:
Tom: Great quotes! It makes perfect sense to me. But then I don't think of salvation occuring in a legalistic framework.
You're going to have to agree to the legal framework, since legal requirements are involved (it's not legalistic, since Jesus did it!!) in salvation from sinful nature and sin, not just understanding God's truth. quote:
It seems that when we can learn to stand back and take a look at the whole of the message of the Bible there is, sadly, an ever re-occuring theme that God's human creation consistently misreads and misjudges God and makes Him out to have the characteristics of Satan himself - vengeful, exacting and severe. That's what I believe will have to be overcome before Christ can return. The message that will be the last message on this planet will be about God and His great mercy.
Have a Joyful and blessed week and may we all have a clearer picture of God.
Joy
Believing God's truth about him and us isn't what saves, while it is what helps build our righteous characters, fitting us for heaven, so that indeed unless and until those characters are fully developed Jesus wouldn't and couldn't return.
Our qualification for heaven is the new mind created as we receive the mind of Christ in justification by faith: that's only possible because we die to sin by acknowledging Christ' death as involving us by him putting us to death in our humanity in his body on the tree. Change of mind is by Christ's death, not solely by understanding God correctly: we can appreciate God only with a new mind, so dying is legally necessary for salvation.
We are not redeemed just from our naturally false impression of God, such as you have described: we are redeemed from our sinful natures, and that requires Jesus' death as us, since he bore our sinful nature to his death. The wages of sin is death, and redeeming us from that eternal fate has legal requirements, so that it was necessary for the Saviour to suffer both death and God's wrath against sin to be the Saviour.
Both having to die to self ourselves and our need to understand God's love are necessary, so you can't exclude the legal necessity of Jesus' death. Else we haven't a full picture of God!
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48019
03/06/06 08:38 PM
03/06/06 08:38 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Believing God's truth about him and us isn't what saves, while it is what helps build our righteous characters, fitting us for heaven, so that indeed unless and until those characters are fully developed Jesus wouldn't and couldn't return.
Here's what Ellen White wrote regarding how we are to be saved:
quote:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.
Ellen White again:
quote:
Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. (ST 1/20/90)
Jesus:
quote:
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (John 17:3)
Jesus again:
quote:
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matt. 7)
These texts indicate that we are saved by knowing God, which involves believing in Jesus Christ, whose purpose was to set us right by revealing God to us.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48020
03/06/06 11:22 PM
03/06/06 11:22 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
We are not redeemed just from our naturally false impression of God, such as you have described: we are redeemed from our sinful natures,
Sinful nature is a false sight of reality and therefore the thoughts and actions are all perverse.
Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
Joh 9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48021
03/06/06 11:50 PM
03/06/06 11:50 PM
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Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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Tom wrote quote:
These texts indicate that we are saved by knowing God, which involves believing in Jesus Christ, whose purpose was to set us right by revealing God to us.
Thank you for that point, but no-one disagrees with that point! It is true, but it becomes a halftruth when the need for the Saviour's death is played down and/or excluded as the other half of the truth.
You and the three sisters, Liane, Tammy, and Cheri, are doing just that, while Sister White did not exclude or downplay Jesus' death as a necessary death in saving the world.
John wrote quote:
Sinful nature is a false sight of reality and therefore the thoughts and actions are all perverse.
Sorry, wrong: sinful nature suggests a false sight of reality; we choose it! Changing our choices to righteous choices takes a while - and probation shall last the distance, marking the successful change. Changing our nature is impossible, so we are redeemed from it, at the price of the life of the Son of God.
It should be well understood that redemption starts with acknowledging our death in Christ, so that the new life can start. Where does sanctification start if there is no justification, no regeneration of the mind, no death to self???
Rom 6:3-6 quote:
3Know ye not that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
4Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, so we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6knowing this: that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
True salvation starts with our eternal death in Christ and ends with Christ's eternal life in us. You're starting at the wrong end and leaving out the real beginning...(!) Where is your confession of your death in Christ??! I don't think I missed your mention of it...
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