Tom, it is impossible to separate faith and works. Yes, they are different aspects of the same dynamics, but they are, nevertheless, inseparably linked. To say we retain justification by faith that works by love is the same thing as saying we retain it by "good works". James made this clear in his epistle.

M.M.

I believe you will agree with me that “ good works ” is “ fruit of the Spirit ”.

We might have fruit of the Spirit when we live by faith and walk after the Spirit. According to me, it is a life where through faith you let the Spirit controls your will. When I did things that is not of the Spirit I would know it.

So, good works is fruit of the Spirit that we attain through faith in Christ and a walk after the Spirit. Without faith in Christ and a walk after the Spirit we would have no good works in the eye of God.

Faith in Christ and a walk after the Spirit is inseparable , you could not say you have faith in Christ but live according to the flesh. Faith in Christ would led to a life fully surrendered to the Spirit’s will, deeds which are good works is the result, just then “ the righteousness of the law might be fully met in us .”

So, how could God justify us by our faith plus our good works? Even though we have good works as the result of living faith, but justification is always depends on the grace of God . No man, how good his living faith is, would stand perfect in his own before God, thus, only through Christ righteousness God might justify him. In this case, good works has no meaning, add nothing to our being justified, because our good works is not perfect.

Justification then is always by faith depending on the grace of God.

“Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace; otherwise work is no more work.” Romans 11:5, 6.

In His love

James S

What does James made clear in his epistle?

1. Faith without works is dead. (James 2:20).
2. Faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect. (James 2:22).
3. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:26).
4. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Point 1, 2 and 3 I have clarified in my post above to M.M.
James stressed his thoughts in the facts that faith without “(good) works”, which is fruit of the Spirit, is a dead faith. It is the life of people claiming they have faith in Christ but live according to the flesh. Only him that has fruit of the Spirit, as his good works, becomes a living testimony of a living faith.

Point 4, James claims that a man is not justified by faith only but works is accounted too.
It seems like a contradiction to Pauline epistle, but it must be not.
James is saying that by believing the word of God “we have done” good works already.
Abraham believed in God, he believed that he would have children and descendants as much as stars in the night sky, in spite of the fact that his wife was very old already and fruitless.

Since Abraham has done nothing accept believing in God , then I assume what James means by “by works a man is justified, and not by faith only,” is that believing in it self is a good work.

In this sense, James not only is in accordance with his own view (point 1 – 3) but also in accordance with Pauline epistle, otherwise point 4 would be a contradiction.

In His love

James S

Hi guys,

Great discussion!

In a non-theological language isn't justification really our realization of how graceful God is. Jesus showed us that God overlooks our past, forgives us, brings us into His family, heals us, is kind, merciful, trustworthy, and loving towards us and if we believe Jesus' testimony and put our loving trust (faith) in God then we are restored or reconciled to Him.

In other words God has always been kind, loving, merciful and forgiving, but we didn't know it. When Jesus demonstrated God's love to us in it's fullness, at the cross, we fell in love with God and believed Jesus.

Another way to say it is that humanity thought God was one way and Jesus showed us that God wasn't that way. We thought God sent disease, tsunamis, storms, earthquakes, famine, and all sorts of horrible things to punish sinners and Jesus came and healed the diseased, calmed the storm, and in essence showed us that it is the adversary that causes human suffering, not God!

Once we realized that God wasn't our enemy, loved us with an everlasting love, was willing to forgive (in fact already had), and was on our side then our paradigm changed toward God. We, that were afar off, were sucked into His love.

Like if I'm typing in a letter with a word processor and I click the justify key. Everything instantly lines up. It is justified. God, at the cross, hit the justify key and we saw His gracefulness and were reconciled to Him. He was never the problem, we were.

So Justification is just us realizing the true character of God in the person of Jesus and loving it. We just fall in line (in love). That is why we can only be justified by faith. We can't add anything to or subtract anything from God. All we can do is accept Jesus' revelation of Him, let down our defenses, and be loved back into His family.

Hence we become candidates for the indwelling of the Spirit because we trust God and open our hearts and minds to Him. Thus sanctification!

In Christ, scott

Welcome to the site, Scott.

I liked the click the justification button analogy. I also liked your definition of "justification."

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So Justification is just us realizing the true character of God in the person of Jesus and loving it. We just fall in line (in love).

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Sister White used the phrase "set right," which is also a nice definition for justification. We are "set right" when we realize the true character of God in the person of Jesus Christ.

Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes.... Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.(ST 1/20/90)

Tom, it looks as though we're unable to see eye to eye on this topic. I believe we obtain justification by faith without good works, and that we retain it through faith that works by love (which is sanctification).

So you think the faith that obtains justification is different than the faith which retains it?

Yes. The one does not require works of righteousness, whereas the other does.

Thanks for the welcome Tom,

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by scott: So Justification is just us realizing the true character of God in the person of Jesus and loving it. We just fall in line (in love). That is why we can only be justified by faith. We can't add anything to or subtract anything from God. All we can do is accept Jesus' revelation of Him, let down our defenses, and be loved back into His family.

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To obtain justification is like obtaining God. Justification is just us realizing who God is through Jesus and falling in love with that person. It is being "set right" by God's character of love. Sometimes we act like it is a salve or maybe sunscreen. "I'm going to "obtain" it and rub it on." No wonder so many think they can work their way to heaven. We don't obtain justification. God's loving character attracts us and we are "set right", reconciled, we stop being His enemy, we make peace, we fall in love with God.

Paul was a student of the law and when trying to describe the relationship that God wants with us and the process that leads into that relationship he used what scholars peg as "legal language". But is it really? Or were those legal terms just metaphors that a legal mind would use to describe to other legal minds the process of a relationship.

Look at this sentence for example: I fell in love with a beautiful lady so I married her. My new bride and I purchased a house out in the country in order to raise and educate our children.

Now 2000 years later when English is a lost language someone comes along and attempts to translate my words. Let's see now, "marriage" is a legal contract where two people are bound by the law. "Purchased" is also a legal contract where property of one is legally transferred to another. "Purchased" and "married" are also in the past tense but could be used in front of the noun such as a "married couple" or in back of the noun such as “couple of married people”. So "purchased” could be attached to the word “bride” or to the word “property”. Scott could be saying that he moved into the country after purchasing his new bride or that in order to properly educate his children he must first purchase a bride and move into the country.

You get my point. Context must be established or words can be made to say anything. The fact that Paul uses legal terms is much more indicative of his legally educated vocabulary than it is the tenor of his theology. Our problem with God was not a legal one, but a broken relationship. Satan in the garden deceived our first parents into believing that God can’t be trusted and that freedom was a sham. Jesus came and restored that broken relationship by showing us how much God loves us and how real our freedom is. Theologians make things much more difficult than they really are.

In Christ, scott