Scott, I agree with virtually everything you are saying, but would like to make one small clarification, which I think you'll agree with (I guess I'll find out). But before I get to that, I'd like to say I really liked the idea of seeing things from the perspective that God's task is to get us to love Him. What you wrote reminds me of this:

The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Mal. 4:2. (DA 22)

Ok, now to the clarification. You wrote that we have nothing to do with justification. I see justification as meaning the same thing as reconciliation, or being set right. I think you would agree with this, because you spoke of God's clicking the justify key, and made the analogy of our justifying a Word document, which is setting it right.

Our reconciliation cannot be said to be something which has nothing to do with us. We are the ones who need to justified, or reconciled, and this happens when we believe the good news that God is how Jesus portrayed Him to be.

So I agree with the points you're making, but am taking exception to the way of phrasing it as "justification has nothing to do with us." It does have something to do with us in that we need to believe the good news in order to be justified.

However, if we think of things in terms of what is necessary for us to be reconciled is to see the true beauty of God's character, then surely there is nothing we can do other than respond to what God reveals to us, which may have been your point.

Hi Tom,

Point taken.

In saying that our justification has nothing to do with us I was only saying that it is based entirely on God. We couldn't possible be reconciled to God if we didn't believe Jesus' testimony and fall in love. But our justification is by grace through faith. Grace is God's character and faith is our loving trust based on that character.

Thank you for the clarification. God's grace has limited benefits to those who don't believe God to be graceful or don't believe Jesus' testimony about God (i.e. the gospel).

In Christ, scott

Quote.
MYP 35
Righteousness within is testified to by righteousness without. He who is righteous within is not hard-hearted and unsympathetic, but day by day he grows into the image of Christ, going on from strength to strength. He who is being sanctified by the truth will be self-controlled, and will follow in the footsteps of Christ until grace is lost in glory. The righteousness by which we are justified is imputed; the righteousness by which we are sanctified is imparted. The first is our title to heaven, the second is our fitness for heaven.--Review and Herald, June 4, 1895. {MYP 35.2}
Unquote.

I agree with sister EGW writings here, only the question is how you could come to this conclusion?
Quote.
But the faith we exercise to obtain justification does not require good works in order to obtain it. And the faith justified people exercise to experience sanctification is faith that produces good works. The one is our title to heaven and the other is our fitness for heaven.
Unquote.

According to me, what sister EGW said, either against our title to heaven or our fitness for heaven, is about the way we obtain righteousness, not about justification.

I agree with her in the way we obtain righteousness.
The 1st, God made us righteous through the imputed righteousness of Christ; a righteousness that saves humanity in the corporate sense, no faith required, no works required, which you are against it. Everybody has their title to heaven; everybody has the same chance to go to heaven, because there is life after death now, our first death is just a sleep, because Christ had risen from the death and everybody will also rise from the death (1 Corinthians 15:21,22). But not all who rise from the death would go to heaven, some of them rise to glory and many of them rise to die the 2nd death.

The 2nd, those who put their faith in Christ would have a righteousness imparted by the Holy Spirit that works in their hearts to recreate them back in the likeness and image of Christ, which is sanctification. They would show fruit of the Spirit, unselfish love that rules their hearts and lives. They are fit for heaven.

What is their part in this process? Cooperating with the Spirit? Deny self? Choosing to live for God and not self? Maybe all, maybe not at all?
One thing I am sure, it is about choice, therefore we are created with the freedom to choose, and through this freedom of choice, many choose to lice for self and die and many choose to live for God and live.
But is choice and act or work? Choice is within our heart, we might do nothing but a choice has been taken. And: “It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure” – Philippians 2:13.

Thus, what EGW said is only to tell us how we obtain righteousness not justification.

Righteousness we obtain trough the imputed and imparted righteousness of Christ. The 1st is our title to heaven and the 2nd is our fitness for heaven. It is a state or condition of our soul, but subject to justification. And there is a Final justification that is subject to a Judgment trial using the Ten Commandments as a standard of righteousness.

We are judge by our works against the Ten Commandments, but we are justified by our faith in the grace of God.

Thus, the faith we accept Christ and the faith to maintain Christ in our hearts is the same one faith; it is God who works in us to will and to do; and we will have the imparted righteousness of Christ.

In His love

James S.

Quote.
James, you're right, we disagree as to justification and sanctification and salvation - as to who is saved and who isn't. I do not believe Jesus saved everyone on the cross. Instead, I believe He made salvation available to everyone who believes and is born again. Only those who believe and are born again and stay born again will be saved when Jesus returns in the clouds of glory.
Unquote.

Jesus saves every one at the cross that is his redemption work, his holy blood that was shed for the remission of sin that justifies all men to live.

Without the cross, men are doomed to die, through the cross men are justified to live. Isn’t it salvation unto all men?

The problem doesn’t lies on the cross, but on men, that not all is saved at the end.

Since the cross only justifies men to live, there is something more God needs to do, which is changing men’s attitude, changing their selfish hearts to the unselfish heart of Christ, to make them FIT for heaven. Otherwise, men would remain under dominion of sin and Satan would be their master.
Those who then accept the Gospel and put their faith in Christ would have his imparted righteousness, and those who deny him would remain in their sin.

Salvation is unto all men, but heaven is for those who love their fellowmen, no matter a stone or tree worshipper as in Romans 2:13-15.

In His love

James S

Quote.
In discussing the intimate details of salvation theologians have created some awesome language. Justification is outside of us, has nothing to do with us, is a free gift, is outside of our works, it is God’s free gift of grace. Justification is all about the gracefulness of God. We can’t earn it, buy it, or obtain it in anyway. It is simply God’s graceful character revealed. His hands are stretched out to sinners offering them pardon, healing, and love because that is just who He is. He wants a restored relationship. Justification is us being set right because we discover God’s gracefulness. We can’t add anything to it. It stands outside of us like a beautiful lake inviting us for a swim. Meanwhile people are wandering around the lake saying, “I don’t deserve this lake side property” or “how can I buy the lake” or “How much do I have to pay to jump in” or “I better take a bath before I go swimming, no way I’m clean enough” etc. etc.

I like your corporate aspect of justification. God revealed His grace to the whole human race in Christ. He put Israel at the crossroads of civilization and called prophets to set the time, place, nation, tribe, family, and events surrounding every major event in the life of Christ. In essence God invited the whole world to jump in the lake. Jesus came and the Jews didn’t want to invite the world to swim so God raised up the Church to tell the world about the free swimming available to all who will believe and come. The water is the character of God exactly as Jesus revealed. We look at it from all angles and see God’s kindness, forgiveness, mercy, and love and all we can say is “grace”.

Most religions want to build fences around the lake and claim it as theirs. That way they can charge admission!

In Christ, scott

Unquote.

I like this, a good reference and illustration to Justification by faith.

In His love

James S

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

by MM: The righteousness by which we are justified is imputed; the righteousness by which we are sanctified is imparted. The first is our title to heaven, the second is our fitness for heaven.--Review and Herald, June 4, 1895. {MYP 35.2}

Tom, if there is no difference between justification and sanctification, so far as faith is concerned, then why did she spelled it out like she did?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote.
Hi MM,

I see the difference as:
Justification is the beautiful character of God realized by an unbeliever who sees it and believes.

Sanctification is what God does in that same man if he continues to put his trust in God's goodness.

Justification has nothing to do with us. Salvation is by grace. In simple words, "we are saved because God is so loving". If we believe Jesus' testimony about the goodness of God and we fall in love with the person Jesus introduced us to then reconciliation has taken place and we are set right with God.

When we realize how loving and trustworthy God is then we open our minds to Him and He comes to live with us in the person of the Holy Spirit. If you hang with God you will change. This is sanctification.

MM, you seem to be under the impression that I (and James) are saying that God saves everyone who believes in Him. That is not true. Never in the bible is there a scripture that teaches the promises are for those whom God loves. The promises are for those who love God. Period.

If God saved everyone who He loved then everyone would be saved and there would have to be prisons in heaven to contain those saved outside their own will. God only saves those who love Him. Therefore His problem, from the beginning, was to get us to love Him. That is a huge problem considering we fell for the lies of Satan. So Jesus (God) comes and lives among us!

If we fall in love with what we see in Jesus then we are safe to take to heaven. If we don't fall in love with Jesus then what more can God do to save us. The devil's job is to keep us from seeing God through Jesus and create other reasons for Christ to come other than revealing God to us.

In Christ, scott

Unquote.

Again, I like this, well brought.

In His love

James S.

Quote.
I pretty much agree with what James is saying here, although I would word things differently. But the basic concepts he is sharing are good.
Unquote.

Tom, please, I like to read that, it is important to me to have a same view but different wording and phrasing.

In His love

James S.

Quote.
The righteousness by which we are justified is imputed; the righteousness by which we are sanctified is imparted. The first is our title to heaven, the second is our fitness for heaven.--Review and Herald, June 4, 1895. {MYP 35.2}

Tom, if there is no diffrence between justification and sanctification, so far as faith is concerned, then why did she spelled it out like she did?
Unquote.

Does she said in order to be justified of having Christ imputed righteousness we need faith in Him?

I see the difference sister White put in her wordings above as follows:

Justification based on Christ imputed righteousness is universal, a justification that saves all men, a justification to live for all men because Christ had died for them. Does this need faith in Him? No! It is for all men, for humanity, since Adam till the last born in earth history.

But this justification is a justification to live, not to enter heaven. It is just our title to heaven, not our fitness for heaven.

Sanctification is an ongoing process that at the end God would justify those who has the imparted righteousness of Christ obtained through a life of faith in Him and a walk after the Spirit. This is Justification by faith.

There are those who claimed they have lived with faith in Him, but they didn’t have His righteousness, this mean that they in fact have not live after the Spirit for they are not imparted by Christ’ righteousness. They would not be justified by their faith because their faith is a fake.

The distinctions between the 1st and the 2nd Justification is concerning faith. The 1st doesn’t need faith at all, but the 2nd needs faith. The 1st was a universal or corporate justification not depending on faith but on the grace of God, the 2nd is Justification by faith where faith is essential, but not works, for this justification also depending on God’s grace.

So, we have Christ Imputed righteousness as a gift which is our title to heaven and Christ imparted righteousness we obtain through a life of faith in Christ and a walk after the Spirit as our fitness for heaven, but at the end, in order to be justified as the sons of God that have the right to enter the gate of heaven and eat the fruit of life and be with God forever, we need His grace, for if depending on our works, which are judge against the Ten Commandments, no man would pass it’s judgment, and no man would enter heaven. (Romans 11:6; Ephesians 2:8, 9).

In His love

James S.

Thanks Tom.

We do have the same view indeed.

In His love

James S