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Re: JUSTIFICATION
#74733
07/26/06 02:16 PM
07/26/06 02:16 PM
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Quote:
by MM: Scott: We don't obtain justification.
MM: Yes we do. Here is how an inspired prophet and messenger of God put it:
Mar 79
God spared not His own Son, but delivered Him to death for our offenses and raised Him again for our justification. Through Christ we may present our petitions at the throne of Grace. Through Him, unworthy as we are, we may obtain all spiritual blessings. Do we come to Him, that we may have life? {Mar 79.4}
Hi MM, I was using the word "obtain" as to "possess or own" something. EW is using "obtain" as to take advantage of something that is available.
God's grace is not a noun, but an adjective describing God's character. Saved by Grace in essence means "saved because God is so graceful". Only in the mind of the theologian can grace become an object to possess. Grace is an attribute to enjoy.
If you don't believe me just try to possess your wife's gracefulness!
In Christ, scott
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Re: JUSTIFICATION
#74734
07/26/06 02:28 PM
07/26/06 02:28 PM
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SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Scott, I am ausing the word "obtain" like Sister White, too. Thank you for the clarification. Also, I believe ggrace is many things, one of them is - power to obey. "Let us have grace whereby we may serve God acceptably." Heb 12:28.
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Re: JUSTIFICATION
#74735
07/26/06 02:31 PM
07/26/06 02:31 PM
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SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Scott: Our problem with God was not a legal one, but a broken relationship. Satan in the garden deceived our first parents into believing that God can’t be trusted and that freedom was a sham.
MM: Yes and no. Yes, our problem involves legal issues, as well as relational ones. And, no, Adam was not deceived. He willingly chose to die with his wife, and not because he distrusted Jesus.
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Re: JUSTIFICATION
#74736
07/26/06 02:57 PM
07/26/06 02:57 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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The legal issues are solved by God's pardoning our sins and reconciling us to Himself. Because the law is a transcript of His character, He cannot reconcile us to Himself without simultaneously reconciling us to His holy law. Holiness has not further to require.
The sinner, drawn by the power of Christ from the confederacy of sin, approaches the uplifted cross, and prostrates himself before it. Then there is a new creature in Christ Jesus. The sinner is cleansed and purified. A new heart is given to him. Holiness finds that it has nothing more to require.(Son and Daughters of God 243)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: JUSTIFICATION
#74737
07/26/06 03:11 PM
07/26/06 03:11 PM
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The righteousness by which we are justified is imputed; the righteousness by which we are sanctified is imparted. The first is our title to heaven, the second is our fitness for heaven.--Review and Herald, June 4, 1895. {MYP 35.2}
Tom, if there is no diffrence between justification and sanctification, so far as faith is concerned, then why did she spelled it out like she did?
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Re: JUSTIFICATION
#74738
07/26/06 03:18 PM
07/26/06 03:18 PM
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SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
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James, you're right, we disagree as to justification and sanctification and salvation - as to who is saved and who isn't. I do not believe Jesus saved everyone on the cross. Instead, I believe He made salvation available to everyone who believes and is born again. Only those who believe and are born again and stay born again will be saved when Jesus returns in the clouds of glory.
Yes, Rom 2:13-15 makes it clear that Jesus will save some who lived according to their convictions and conscience who never knew Jesus, but this arrangement is special. He will impute His life and death to save them in judgment.
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Re: JUSTIFICATION
#74739
07/26/06 03:39 PM
07/26/06 03:39 PM
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Quote:
by MM: The righteousness by which we are justified is imputed; the righteousness by which we are sanctified is imparted. The first is our title to heaven, the second is our fitness for heaven.--Review and Herald, June 4, 1895. {MYP 35.2}
Tom, if there is no difference between justification and sanctification, so far as faith is concerned, then why did she spelled it out like she did?
Hi MM,
I see the difference as:
Justification is the beautiful character of God realized by an unbeliever who sees it and believes.
Sanctification is what God does in that same man if he continues to put his trust in God's goodness.
Justification has nothing to do with us. Salvation is by grace. In simple words, "we are saved because God is so loving". If we believe Jesus' testimony about the goodness of God and we fall in love with the person Jesus introduced us to then reconciliation has taken place and we are set right with God.
When we realize how loving and trustworthy God is then we open our minds to Him and He comes to live with us in the person of the Holy Spirit. If you hang with God you will change. This is sanctification.
MM, you seem to be under the impression that I (and James) are saying that God saves everyone who believes in Him. That is not true. Never in the bible is there a scripture that teaches the promises are for those whom God loves. The promises are for those who love God. Period.
If God saved everyone who He loved then everyone would be saved and there would have to be prisons in heaven to contain those saved outside their own will. God only saves those who love Him. Therefore His problem, from the beginning, was to get us to love Him. That is a huge problem considering we fell for the lies of Satan. So Jesus (God) comes and lives among us!
If we fall in love with what we see in Jesus then we are safe to take to heaven. If we don't fall in love with Jesus then what more can God do to save us. The devil's job is to keep us from seeing God through Jesus and create other reasons for Christ to come other than revealing God to us.
In Christ, scott
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Re: JUSTIFICATION
#74740
07/26/06 03:46 PM
07/26/06 03:46 PM
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Christ's Gospel: God is love and my life is what love looks like.
Anti-Christ's Gospel: Anything that makes God look different than Jesus presented Him to be.
Christ is the fullness of God, the exact representation of His character. Light came into the world and those who love the light will bask in it while those who love darkness will flee. False light is really no light at all. Jesus is the light of the world.
In Christ, scott
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Re: JUSTIFICATION
#74741
07/26/06 04:10 PM
07/26/06 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Scott: Our problem with God was not a legal one, but a broken relationship. Satan in the garden deceived our first parents into believing that God can’t be trusted and that freedom was a sham.
MM: Yes and no. Yes, our problem involves legal issues, as well as relational ones. And, no, Adam was not deceived. He willingly chose to die with his wife, and not because he distrusted Jesus.
Galatians 3:19 "What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions . . ."
There is an unwritten law in my marriage that I can't sleep with other women. If I love my wife this isn't even a problem. If I don't love my wife I'm sure you could think of multiple ways in which I would be breaking the law of love.
The real law is the character of God. This is the standard of righteousness.
The 10 commandments were an expression of 10 different ways in which humanity had broken the law of love.
God speaks the commandments and in essence was telling Israel that these common practices would destroy any possibility of love existing among them. God's voice makes Israel so afraid that they ask Moses to go into the flames and talk to God for them. God, wanting to make a whole nation of priests out of Israel, writes the 10 commandments on a stone as Israelis new standard of righteousness.
Moses comes off the mountain and finds the camp in rebellion. Moses breaks the commandments written in stone and finds that the only tribe that didn't participate in the rebellion was the Levites. So Moses goes back up the mountain and receives again the 10 commandment, but along with them 100s of instructions breaking love down into smaller and smaller pieces.
It is a shame that Israel was so marginalized that they needed God to tell them that to love was to bury your dung so no one would step in it and flies wouldn't spread disease. The statutes and judgments were another expression of love to children so immature they had to be told every move.
Whether Adam chose to sin or was deceived makes no difference. In loving his wife more than God he acted outside of love. In fact I would say that in Adam's act of sin he love himself the most. He couldn't stand the thought of loosing his beautiful bride. Sounds like selfishness to me. Maybe if Adam hadn't sinned he could have been the one God could have used to bring Eve back to trust.
Our problem with God is a broken relationship that legal language describes. A lawyer would describe a divorce as two people who wanted to revoke the marriage contract because of irreconcilable differences. But in reality a divorce is nothing more than a broken relationship.
In Christ, scott
In Christ, scott
Last edited by scott; 07/26/06 04:56 PM.
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Re: JUSTIFICATION
#74742
07/26/06 04:15 PM
07/26/06 04:15 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Quote:
Tom, if there is no diffrence between justification and sanctification, so far as faith is concerned, then why did she spelled it out like she did?
This is a very strange question. It's like asking if there's no difference between apple trees and orange trees, as far as soil is concerned, why did she spell things out like she did (based on some statement where Ellen White brings out the fact that apple trees are different than orange trees).
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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