Mike wrote:

"When we're born again we receive the sinless seed of the new man. Eph 4:24 and 1 Peter 1:23 and 1 John 3:9. "That which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:6. "The Spirit is life because of righteousness." Rom 8:10.

"Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." Gal 5:16. Which moral attributes or fruit of the Spirit are missing at the moment we receive the seed of the new man? In what way are we morally imperfect? Does growth in grace (sanctification) involve becoming less and less morally sinful?"

The bible does teach that God's seed remains in the truly converted...but what you are asking seems to be, if we can reach moral perfection in this life. Is this what you are asking???

If so...how does or where does the bible teach one walking in sanctification of the Spirit will fill up the sum of moral perfection??? --frenhmon

Thank you for resurrecting this post. I love discussing this subject. And you ask a very insightful question suggesting you have been wrapping your mind around these issues too. Thank you Jesus for your interest.

Does the Bible teach that a truly converted Christian, who is walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, fill up the sum of moral perfection? Yes, that's how it seems to read to me.

Let me explain. Take for example Gal 5:16 - Walk in the Spirit and ye shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Paul goes on to list some of the lusts of the flesh, and then he concludes by saying born again believers will instead experience the fruit of the Spirit. Verses 22-25.

Verses 18 and 25 are really good - If ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under law... If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Rom 6, Eph 4, Gal 5, 2 Peter 1 and 1 John 3 are just a few places where the Bible seems to be saying that Christians who walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man do not and cannot commit a known moral sin.

I guess the key word in these passages is the word if. If any man be in Christ... (2 Cor 5:17). Apparently moral perfection is a gift we receive when we crucify the old man and receive the sinless seed of the new man. And so long as we walk in the Spirit in Christ our experience will follow the example of Jesus as He grew from infancy to manhood. We begin at conversion where Christ began at conception. Morally perfect or complete, but certainly not morally mature.

That isn't to say we will not slip in and out of the Spirit and sin from time to time. But we must first disconnect from Jesus and the Spirit before sin is possible. As I see it, we must first dethrone the Holy Spirit from off the throne of our soul temple and then resurrect the old man in order to revert back to committing moral sin.

And to restore the relationship our sin severed we must receive the gift of repentance, which empowers us to confess and forsake our sin, and then God has the legal right to pardon us and the Spirit can resume His position upon the throne of our hearts empowering us to recognize and resist known sin and to mature in the fruit of the Spirit unto the honor and glory of our heavenly Father.

Anyhow, that's what makes sense to me as I read the Bible. What about you?

Mike...to say we are morally perfect seems to say we are perfect in every thought...is this your understanding of "Morally Perfect???

Also when Jesus died did He die that your sin nature is also dead???

frenchmon

Sorry for the long delay. I was away on business. Thank you for the good questions. Yes, I believe the gift of moral perfection includes perfect thoughts and feelings - which I believe is the stuff of character development.

No, the death of Jesus did not eliminate our sinful flesh nature. But it does empower us to crucify our sinful character - the old man.

My studies have led me to believe that it is not a sin to possess sinful flesh. And even though our sinful flesh communicates sinful thoughts and feelings God does not hold us accountable for their existence.

Initially sinful thoughts and feelings begin as mere temptations, and do not become accountable sin until we do or desire them. This internal battle with fallen flesh will continue this side of receiving our new flesh body when Jesus returns.

In Christ we may successfully resist the unholy clamorings of our sinful flesh and maintain pure thoughts and feelings instead. This aspect of Christianity is what draws me to Jesus. I thoroughly love the freedom that comes from walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. Thank you Jesus!

What about you?

Hi Mike...

You have answered correctly when you said:

"the death of Jesus did not eliminate our sinful flesh nature. But it does empower us to crucify our sinful character - the old man.

It is written "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us"

but then you said

"even though our sinful flesh communicates sinful thoughts and feelings God does not hold us accountable for their existence.

"[b]In Christ we may successfully resist the unholy clamorings of our sinful flesh and maintain pure thoughts and feelings instead.[b/]

So have you mantained pure thoughts??? Have you had sinful thoughts towards someone you need not ask forgiveness for ???--frenchmon

Could it be that moral perfection is victory in Jesus that is geared to be ongoing in nature. Partaking of the Divine nature through the Word, we become changed as fast as we allow and can endure. Even in eternity this will never stop.

As we do these things this promise is fulfilled unto us.

"The soul of the prophet, emptied of self, was filled with the light of the divine. As he witnessed to the Saviour's glory, his words were almost a counterpart of those that Christ Himself had spoken in His interview with Nicodemus. John said, "He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: He that cometh from heaven is above all. . . . For He whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto Him." Christ could say, "I seek not Mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent Me." John 5:30. To Him it is declared, "Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even Thy God, hath anointed Thee with the oil of gladness above Thy fellows." Heb. 1:9. The Father "giveth not the Spirit by measure unto Him." {DA 180.1}

So with the followers of Christ. We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We cannot discern the character of God, or accept Christ by faith, unless we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. To all who do this the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, and in Him ye are made full." Col. 2:9, 10, R. V. {DA 181.1}

To learn to empty out selfishness and by deliberate faith grasp Christ at His word and live or die depend upon it, will be like the crawling bleeding woman, who caused Him to say "who touched Me" for His power will flow to that kind of grasp.

Try out Richard O'Fill's book "Expect Great Things". Then dig the Word & SOP for tools and explanations of how to do this kind of stuff. God loves to have folks test out His power to make this text happen for them & in them ......1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

How would you like to walk all over the temptations that clobber you now & reach by faith places you have never yet dreamed of going? Jesus would love to replicate this inside you .

"We are forming characters for heaven. No character can be complete without trial and suffering. We must be tested, we must be tried. Christ bore the test of character of our behalf that we might bear this test in our own behalf through the divine strength He has brought to us. Christ is our example in patience, in forbearance, in meekness and lowliness of mind. He was at variance and at war with the whole ungodly world, yet He did not give way to passion and violence manifested in words and actions, although receiving shameful abuse in return for good works. He was afflicted, He was rejected and despitefully treated, yet He retaliated not. He possessed self-control, dignity, and majesty. He suffered with calmness and for abuse gave only compassion, pity, and love. . . . {TDG 263.1}

Imitate your Redeemer in these things. Do not get excited when things go wrong. Do not let self arise, and lose your self-control because you fancy things are not as they should be. Because others are wrong is no excuse for you to do wrong. Two wrongs will not make one right. You have victories to gain in order to overcome as Christ overcame. {TDG 263.2}

Christ never murmured, never uttered discontent, displeasure, or resentment. He was never disheartened, discouraged, ruffled, or fretted. He was patient, calm, and self-possessed under the most exciting and trying circumstances. All His works were performed with a quiet dignity and ease, whatever commotion was around Him. Applause did not elate Him. He feared not the threats of His enemies. He moved amid the world of excitement, of violence and crime, as the sun moves above the clouds. Human passions and commotions and trials were beneath Him. He sailed like the sun above them all. Yet He was not indifferent to the woes of men. His heart was ever touched with the sufferings and necessities of His brethren, as though He Himself was the one afflicted. He had a calm inward joy, a peace which was serene. His will was ever swallowed up in the will of His Father. Not My will but Thine be done, was heard from His pale and quivering lips.--Letter 51a, Sept. 11, 1874, to Edson and Emma White. {TDG 263.3}

Here is my suggestion, turn these kinds of quotes into prayers for their inward accomplishment & tutoring & from them create an outward mission. Remember the promise of Isaiah 58: 6 - 14 (look for the conditions & the promises) You agape love motivated help others & Jesus also agape love motivated will help you, just consider which one is able to help the most .)

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Edward F Sutton

Brother Sutton wrote

"Could it be that moral perfection is victory in Jesus that is geared to be ongoing in nature. Partaking of the Divine nature through the Word, we become changed as fast as we allow and can endure. Even in eternity this will never stop."

I agree with the above 100%...thanks brother Sutton, we are sanctified daily...perfecting our thoughts to be more like Jesus...this is truly the work of all eternity...

Blessings on this wonderful Sabbath..--frenchmon

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Our Father does not tell us to do something that can not be done.
Not necessarily on our own (we can't be perfect), but He gives us the strength to do what He has asked.
We must be willing :Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
We can't do it on our own, but we don't have to.He puts it in us.
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
emphasis on if not when.
Too often we take that to mean that we are free to sin, we are not.
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Paul differentiates between wilfull sin and the unplanned falls{sins} we have.
Like frenchmon [I think] said, we sometimes lose a hold and we fall.
Then 1John1:9 comes into play:If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

God does not call the enabled, He enables the called.Phillipians4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

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Examine me, O LORD, and prove me: try my reins and my heart. Ps.26:2
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in men.Ps.118:8

Now that we know how Paul differentiates it, how do we differentiate it ourselves?

When is sin an if sin and when is sin a planned sin?

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In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

Topic: When do we experience moral perfection?

In this life? In this flesh? NEVER!!

Can a man continuesly in all his life living after the Spirit? Paul tell us in Romans 7, that he can never reach moral perfection and his body is still the body of death.
He is only perfect "in Christ".

Why we can't have moral perfection? Because the flesh is weak! (Romans 8:3). The Spirit is just given to us, it is not our nature. The flesh is our nature. Christ was morally perfect because the Spirit is His nature, the flesh is not His nature. That is why all believers in Christ need a transformation to glorius body before entering heaven, if we enter heaven in this old body, we will sin again in heaven.

What we can only have is "righteousness of the law fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit" (Romans 8:4).

Walking after the Spirit happen when we decide to live for God as the result or fruit of our faith in Christ. And as Christ is the fulfilment of the Law, by believing in Him we were counted righteous, even we
were not perfect and were still sinners.

As Jesus has ever said:" What flesh is will always flesh."

In His love

James S.