Hi Mike...this passage of scripture makes a good study.

You wrote:

"I do not believe this passage means I was guilty before birth based on Adam eating the forbidden fruit. Nor do I believe it means that I was guilty after I was born because of Adam's sin. See Eze 18:20 and Deut 24:16."

I asked you this question in order to get you to flesh out your ideas a bit more...and from what I can gather, you make sin a matter of what we do instead of what we where born...sins come form sin...acts of sin come from sinfulness...

I also don't believe this passage means I was guilty before birth, but I do think this passage says I was born with spiritual death...born missing the true scope of what God wants for us, born sinful...in a state of sin, because of Adams state of sin that came upon him the second he acted contrary to God's law...this sin nature or state, was passed on to mankind...Eze 18 and Deut 24 has nothing to do with this...It sounds as if you have understood the arguments of the 1888 MSCG and Jack Seqeuria very well???

You said Rom 5:19)

"...I was born with the sinful clamorings of fallen flesh, and that before I am born again I naturally do and desire those sinful suggestions. And by reason of my own sins I am guilty before God and condemned by the law."

What you have said in a nutshell is that because of Adam's disobedience you have occasion to sin (because of the fallen nature)...and therefore because you sinned, you are guilty before God and His law .

While this is true Mike, you were condemned before you acted ...your way of reasoning says until I act and commit sin, I am not condemned...this is not what the bible teaches...The bible teaches in the same passage we used (Rom 5:12) that we are born condemned before Gods law before we do any acts of sin.

Just as...because of what Christ has done we are made righteous by trusting in Him, therefore Just as what Adam has done we are made unrighteous and condemned...wrath is upon all who are born, even before they act out sins in their lives...Adam gave to all his posterity his fallen state of sin.

Romans 5:19 says:

"For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

It says by one mans disobedience...made sinners....A sinner with out being made righteous by faith, is condemned...not because he did acts of sin, but because he was made a sinner by the disobedience of Adam...Adams state of sin was past on to his posterity...

You wrote:

""For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Rom 3:23."

Yes this is true...but it says nothing of the state of sin.

Rom 5:12

If sin entered the world(all men) through one man then all men are sinners...

If death enterd in because of sin then all are born with a death sentence...

If all sin and death enterd in because of the disobedience of one, then before they act out what is all ready there, they are condemned before God's Holy law...until they trust Christ...

If they are born with the law of sin and death...then they will commit acts of sin...however Adam was our representative to God just as Christ is our representative to God...we sinned in him (not in substance)because he was our representative.

The later point is not why we are condemned...we are condemned because we are born in a state of sin without righteousness.

...--frenchmon

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
When do we experience moral perfection? Before, during or after we're born again? Please use the Bible to support your thoughts and insights. Thank you and God bless.

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Question to go with your question, Mike. Are you speaking about intrinsic or extrinsic moral perfection, or imputed or imparted?

MHS

Frenchmon & Mike ,

Having read neither 1888 MSCG and Jack Seqeuria, perhaps I make a good control group subject.

I am wondering regarding the sin problem, about both sides of the coin.

(A.). RE: transgression & indwelling individual nature. Lucifer, the third of the holy Angels, and Adam & Eve. They all once had pure, sinless, perfect holy natures. Did they sin by their natures or by their decisions and actions ? By their decisions and actions.

Did their natures keep them pure after they decided to sin ? No their natures that were once holy and pure were defiled, corrupted, and once they were expelled away from God's appointed agency of conditional immortality(the tree of life they were subject to death). Even more than this, now the glory of God would be used at a future time to destroy them, because to sin God is a consuming fire.

Now they had developed sin more fully. (part-1 sin.) Sin is the transgression of the law. What kind of sin is that, the sin of commission or omission . The kind that along with forgiveness(atonement/healing) requires the purging/cleansing of the conscience. That type of sin is shown by loyalty verses treason.

(Part 2. sin) This part is the effect of sin, and the nature of humanity after being corrupted in their humanity by losing God's image as the vital part of their humanity. Then being connected by nature to Satan, by the door opened through their treason to God & loyalty to Satan. Physically they can not come near to the Living God or be destroyed by His physical glory. Mentally and spiritually His personal purity makes them upset, guilty, angry. God provides a remedy at the Second Coming, a holy physical nature is provided to thr redeemed saved people, by the creative power of Jesus. Spiritual victory in Christ does not come because overcomers receive a new physical nature. They partake of the Divine nature. This is a spiritual transforming of the mind, and sympathies, and loyalties. They are born not of the nature of the flesh, they already have that. They are reborn of the water, Spirit, and the Word . While they do not nor ever will have the guilt of sinners who lived before them, they have the deadly effects of sins destructive power biologically active within. When ever they imitate & share in the same kinds of transgressions as the sinners who have lived before them, they have entered into their sins and help fill up the cup of those types of transgressions. This kind of sin is not a matter of guilt of transgression, but a matter of being damaged by sin and unable to survive in Heaven without physical re-creation at the Second Coming. Jesus has to make atonement for these kinds of uncleanness as well as the sins of commission & omission .

(B.). RE: moral victory, righteousness, sinlessness, moral perfection & indwelling individual nature.

Christ took within Himself the physical & mental nature of the seed of Abraham. He did not depend upon those infirmities as an excuse. He now could sin through transgression of the law. He had our physical liabilities . To build a totally victorious human character to impart & impute & mediate for and implant within human sinners, this was His arena & workshop (inside Himself). He could use His Divine power but was forbidden to through necessity of having to walk before the Father with no advantages over us, and open the door for us. So using Divine indwelling power was not an option, instead He had to constantly squelch His naturally occurring omnipotence for our sakes(the difficulty of which we can never appreciate.)

He had to obtain and apply the Father’s power constantly in order to achieve, maintain sinless victory and grow on into perfection. His nature was not what was going to give Him human victory in God . As He lived by the Father so we are to live by Him. There is no original sin, neither is their any holy flesh this side of glorification at the Second Coming. At His ressurection Jesus in His human nature was glorified. In Psalm 22, His thoughts on the cross of Calvary are partially revealed, and notice the plea not to be allowed to rot in the tomb. After His ressurection that was no longer possible. Even with His pre-glorified physical nature, since He is sinless the Father could communicate with Him - even touching Him, without injury to Jesus.

Mike & Frenchmon you are separably holding to only one side of the coin, are both wrong through incompleteness; even though you are both correct in some ways in what you both state. Combine both sides of the coin for a more complete picture.

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Edward F Sutton

Mike, I see you are still flogging the same horse. It appears you still have a problem with accepting the Seventh-day Adventist position on the nature of man and of Christ as presented in the 27 Fundamental Beliefs.

MHS

MHS,
Please post the official position, that it can be compared with the weight of inspiration. How specific is this official position ? Does it agree with the specifics given by inspiration?

You make it sound as if Mike is a lone stranger, with a unique divergent doctrine that has never been given to, or been embraced by the body. What is the situation ? I do not have a history with Mike, I assume you do.

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Edward F Sutton

Brother Sutton....I am willing to listen...I never claim perfection at any level...show me from my postings where I am wrong, if so I will change my views....Also, your view that there is no "original sin" all depends on what your explanation of original sin is...other than that, I agree with your posting...--frenchmon

Mike, by no means, is not a loner to his intepretation. The "official position", just read 27 Fundamental Beliefs I think that would be much simpler than posting the book here.

MHS

quote:

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Originally posted by Edward F Sutton:
MHS,
Please post the official position, that it can be compared with the weight of inspiration. How specific is this official position ? Does it agree with the specifics given by inspiration?

You make it sound as if Mike is a lone stranger, with a unique divergent doctrine that has never been given to, or been embraced by the body. What is the situation ? I do not have a history with Mike, I assume you do.

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Here we get back to the definition of sin again. If sin is sinning - ie transgression of the law - only, then we are not born sinners. We are born righteous. But we all know there's something wrong with our first birth, or we wouldn't have to be born again. So there must be something about the way we are - right from conception, even - that causes us to be called "sinners", even before we have the opportunity to do bad things. We are not like Adam and Eve, who were made perfect, and then did a bad thing. We are the opposite. We are born imperfect, and it is impossible to do good things without supernatural power outside of ourselves. What they did destroyed our capacity to do good works until and unless we become and remain connected to the Creator. When works are focussed on as the telling point in whether we are sinners or not, we are on a works trip just as surely as when we say we are saved by keeping the commandments. Guilt and condemnation are other subjects, and come into play when we have knowledge. But we ARE born sinful, even though we may not be held accountable. It is in our genes to disobey.
Frenchmon, I agree with what you are saying. There are not two sides to the coin of being born sinners. We are.

To me, “moral perfection” is God’s business; something He says He does for and in man. It is what God does in the submissive, surrendered believer. Since man is “thoroughly sinful” I believe he will never have a “perfect” understanding of “moral perfection”. Because of this condition “moral perfection” will need to be done for him. Not only that, how will you know you have arrived at “moral perfection” particularly when we are told ”The closer you come to Jesus, the more faulty you will appear in your own eyes;…” SC 64 Also note “moral perfection” is not equated with the absence of sin, i.e., law keeping, it is instead Christ abiding in the heart by faith. Only Jesus, the Divine/Human suppliant, is “morally perfect”. Therefore, only through His gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit comes imputed and imparted righteousness, “moral perfection”.

Take a look at the following texts: (I have limited myself to those texts in the New Testament that speaks of God’s work for and in mankind. The texts have been recorded in the order they appear in the Bible to make it convenient to look them up.)

Matt 1:21; 19:26; John 1:12, 13, 29; 4:14; 6:63; 14:26; 15:1-5; 17:17; Acts 13:38, 39; Rom. 1:16, 17; 3:20-28; 4:21; 5:1, 2, 5-10; 6:22, 23; 8:11, 14; 10:3; 1 Cor. 1:30,31; 3:16; 6:11; 2 Cor. 1:21, 22; 3:18; 4:6, 7; 5:17-21; 6:16; 12:9; Gal. 2:16-21; Eph. 2:8-10, 21, 22; 3:14-21; 4:11-13; 5:26; Phil 1:6, 11, 21; 2:13; 3:7-10; Col. 1:12-14, 27; 2:6-10; 1 Thes. 3:13; 5:23, 24; 2 Thes. 2:13; 3:3-5; 2 Tim. 1:9, 12-14; Titus 2:11-14; 3:3-7; Heb. 7:25; 10:14-17; 13:20, 21; James 1:17, 18; 1 Peter 1:23; 5:10; 1 John 1:7-10; Jude 24.

The following quotes are from Desire of Ages and I believe they speak for themselves:

The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. More than this, Christ imbues men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty. Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Rom. 3:26. DA 762

…The word of God, received into the soul, molds the thoughts, and enters into the development of character.
By looking constantly to Jesus with the eye of faith, we shall be strengthened. God will make the most precious revelations to His hungering, thirsting people. They will find that Christ is a personal Saviour. As they feed upon His word, they find that it is spirit and life. The word destroys the natural, earthly nature, and imparts a new life in Christ Jesus. The Holy Spirit comes to the soul as a Comforter. By the transforming agency of His grace, the image of God is reproduced in the disciple; he becomes a new creature. Love takes the place of hatred, and the heart receives the divine similitude. This is what it means to live "by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." This is eating the Bread that comes down from heaven. DA 391

"Herein is My Father glorified," said Jesus, "that ye bear much fruit." God desires to manifest through you the holiness, the benevolence, the compassion, of His own character. Yet the Saviour does not bid the disciples labor to bear fruit. He tells them to abide in Him. "If ye abide in Me," He says, "and My words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." It is through the word that Christ abides in His followers. This is the same vital union that is represented by eating His flesh and drinking His blood. The words of Christ are spirit and life. Receiving them, you receive the life of the Vine. You live "by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Matt. 4:4. The life of Christ in you produces the same fruits as in Him. Living in Christ, adhering to Christ, supported by Christ, drawing nourishment from Christ, you bear fruit after the similitude of Christ. DA 677

The following are quotes also from SOP. Over the years I have collected statements that I have titled ONLY-NONE-ALONE. Only, none, alone are exclusive statements and must be understood as such. If it says only Jesus can do something—then I believe that only Jesus can do it. I think that is simple enough.

He who seeks to quench his thirst at the fountains of this world will drink only to thirst again. Everywhere men are unsatisfied. They long for something to supply the need of the soul. Only One can meet that want. The need of the world, "The Desire of all nations," is Christ. The divine grace which He alone can impart, is as living water, purifying, refreshing, and invigorating the soul. DA187

None but Christ can fashion anew the character that has been ruined by sin. He came to expel the demons that had controlled the will. He came to lift us up from the dust, to reshape the marred character after the pattern of His divine character, and to make it beautiful with His own glory. DA38

None but the Son of God could accomplish our redemption; for only He who was in the bosom of the Father could declare Him. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it manifest. Nothing less than the infinite sacrifice made by Christ in behalf of fallen man could express the Father's love to lost humanity. SC14

The only hope of redemption for our fallen race is in Christ. DA147

No man can of himself cast out the evil throng that have taken possession of the heart. Only Christ can cleanse the soul temple. DA161

The Christian's life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit. DA172

Through the same faith we may receive spiritual healing. By sin we have been severed from the life of God. Our souls are palsied. Of ourselves we are no more capable of living a holy life than was the impotent man capable of walking. DA203

Sinful men can become righteous only as they have faith in God and maintain a vital connection with Him. DA310

The only defense against evil is the indwelling of Christ in the heart through faith in His righteousness. DA324

All are weighed down with burdens that only Christ can remove. The heaviest burden that we bear is the burden of sin. If we were left to bear this burden, it would crush us. DA328-329

The only faith that will benefit us is that which embraces Him as a personal Saviour; which appropriates His merits to ourselves. DA347

Yet all our infirmity and defilement we must bring to Him. He alone can wash us clean. DA649

Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the Third Person of the Godhead. DA671

The life you have received from Me (Jesus) can be preserved only by continual communion. Without Me you cannot overcome one sin, or resist one temptation. DA676

The Holy Spirit is the breath of spiritual life in the soul. The impartation of the Spirit is the impartation of the life of Christ. It imbues the receiver with the attributes of Christ. Only those who are thus taught of God, those who possess the inward working of the Spirit, and in whose life the Christ-life is manifested, are to stand as representative men, to minister in behalf of the church. DA805

But man cannot transform himself by the exercise of his will. He possesses no power by which this change can be effected. The leaven--something wholly from without--must be put into the meal before the desired change can be wrought in it. So the grace of God must be received by the sinner before he can be fitted for the kingdom of glory. All the culture and education which the world can give will fail of making a degraded child of sin a child of heaven. The renewing energy must come from God. The change can be made only by the Holy Spirit. All who would be saved, high or low, rich or poor, must submit to the working of this power. COL 96-97

"Ye cannot serve the Lord," said Joshua: "for He is a holy God; . . . He will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins." Before there could be any permanent reformation the people must be led to feel their utter inability in themselves to render obedience to God. They had broken His law, it condemned them as transgressors, and it provided no way of escape. While they trusted in their own strength and righteousness, it was impossible for them to secure the pardon of their sins; they could not meet the claims of God's perfect law, and it was in vain that they pledged themselves to serve God. It was only by faith in Christ that they could secure pardon of sin and receive strength to obey God's law. They must cease to rely upon their own efforts for salvation, they must trust wholly in the merits of the promised Saviour, if they would be accepted of God. PP 524
By nature the heart is evil, and "who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." Job 14:4. No human invention can find a remedy for the sinning soul. The fountain of the heart must be purified before the streams can become pure. He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility. There is no safety for one who has merely a legal religion, a form of godliness. The Christian's life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit.

It is the Spirit that makes effectual what has been wrought out by the world's Redeemer. It is by the Spirit that the heart is made pure. Through the Spirit the believer becomes a partaker of the divine nature. Christ has given His Spirit as a divine power to overcome all hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil, and to impress His own character upon His church.

Like the wind, which is invisible, yet the effects of which are plainly seen and felt, is the Spirit of God in its work upon the human heart. That regenerating power, which no human eye can see, begets a new life in the soul; it creates a new being in the image of God.

The thoughtless and wayward become serious. The hardened repent of their sins, and the faithless believe. The gambler, the drunkard, the licentious, become steady, sober, and pure. The rebellious and obstinate become meek and Christlike. When we see these changes in the character, we may be assured that the converting power of God has transformed the entire man.

He who looks to Christ in simple, childlike faith is made a partaker of the divine nature through the agency of the Holy Spirit. The Faith I Live By, 55

In conclusion, to what I have posted, may I be so bold as to suggest we study Jesus rather than trying to determine the exact, precise moment man becomes “morally perfect”. In fact, in God’s eyes, through the atoning work of our Elder Brother, through faith, we always are and will be as we abide in Him until He comes.

My prayer, therefore, is that we will abide in Christ so that living in Christ, adhering to Christ, supported by Christ, drawing nourishment from Christ, we will bear fruit after the similitude of Christ for against such there is no law.

Yours in the Blessed Hope,
MHS

I will make one additional posting from Acts of the Apostles, Pages 560-562

"Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience.

None of the apostles and prophets ever claimed to be without sin. Men who have lived the nearest to God, men who would sacrifice life itself rather than knowingly commit a wrong act, men whom God has honored with divine light and power, have confessed the sinfulness of their nature. They have put no confidence in the flesh, have claimed no righteousness of their own, but have trusted wholly in the righteousness of Christ.

So will it be with all who behold Christ. The nearer we come to Jesus, and the more clearly we discern the purity of His character, the more clearly shall we see the exceeding sinfulness of sin, and the less shall we feel like exalting ourselves. There will be a continual reaching out of the soul after God, a continual, earnest, heartbreaking confession of sin and humbling of the heart before Him. At every advance step in our Christian experience our repentance will deepen. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone and shall make the apostle's confession our own: "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing." "God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Romans 7:18; Galatians 6:14.

Let the recording angels write the history of the holy struggles and conflicts of the people of God; let them record their prayers and tears; but let not God be dishonored by the declaration from human lips, "I am sinless; I am holy." Sanctified lips will never give utterance to such presumptuous words.

The apostle Paul had been caught up to the third heaven and had seen and heard things that could not be uttered, and yet his unassuming statement is: "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after." Philippians 3:12. Let the angels of heaven write of Paul's victories in fighting the good fight of faith. Let heaven rejoice in his steadfast tread heavenward, and that, keeping the prize in view, he counts every other consideration dross. Angels rejoice to tell his triumphs, but Paul makes no boast of his attainments. The attitude of Paul is the attitude that every follower of Christ should take as he urges his way onward in the strife for the immortal crown.

Let those who feel inclined to make a high profession of holiness look into the mirror of God's law. As they see its far-reaching claims, and understand its work as a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart, they will not boast of sinlessness. "If we," says John, not separating himself from his brethren, "say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:8, 10, 9."

Yours in the Blessed Hope,
Mogens