Can we experience moral perfection this side of eternity? Absolutely. Why? Because it doesn't depend on us. It's not something we must achieve, rather it's a gift we may receive.

My studies have led me to believe there is a difference between sinful flesh and sinful character. We must crucify sinful character, but we can only control sinful flesh. The flesh can only communicate sinful thoughts and feelings it cannot, however, commit sin. The commission of sin is the stuff of character.

In the Bible sinful character is called the "old man". In Rom 6 it says the old man is crucified when we're baptized in Christ. Rom 7 goes on to explain that even though the old man habits of sin are dead our sinful flesh still communicates sinful thoughts and feelings that must be resisted like any other temptation.

Do born again believers still have sinful thoughts and feelings? Yes and no. Yes in that the flesh still sends them to our minds. No in that they are not our thoughts and feelings until we do or desire them. God does not hold us accountable for the sinful thoughts and feelings our sinful flesh puts in our minds - at least not until we do or desire them.

The Bible says that a born again believer who is walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man will not and "cannot" commit known moral sin. See 1 John 3 and previous quotes posted in this thread. We must either figure out how to believe these passages or twist them to mean something other than it says plainly.

What do you think?

Succinctly put, Mike. I agree with your conclusions.

Looks like Jesus's goal is pour in as much of Himself in as the person following Him can hold, and as often as that person can hold.

The more we give the more we get. He uses our preportunate largeness or smallness of heart to determine how much we can strech to accomodate at any one setting.

The idea of obtaining that like precious faith (Christ in you the hope of glory) is better than the idea of "manufacturing that like precious faith" and "the merits of my virtues in me the hope of glory".

God expects me to become perfect, through the Lordship of Jesus empowering and filling me with His merits and victorious partnership. The works may outwardly seem the same as someone else's equally good ones for awhile, but engrafted into the life of Jesus, they are co-partnered derivites of His life and merits He is letting me use and blossom in. The outward works are supposed to be there, they are the results of Jesus sucessfully getting through to the inside of me.

It's like Lake Michigan, I keep drinking with my cup from the shore, and drinking, and drinking. I fill up for a while, but soon I need more & still more. I can never dry up the huge lake because God keeps raining water into it faster that anyone could drink out. Jesus the living water and the inexhaustable source of spiritual life.

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Edward F Sutton

Mike...your posting is very confusing...

You said:

"Can we experience moral perfection this side of eternity? Absolutely. Why? Because it doesn't depend on us. It's not something we must achieve, rather it's a gift we may receive."

If what you mean by this is that The moral perfection of Jesus is given to us and stands in place of our imperfections...then I agree, other wise you contradict the teaching of scripture...

Then you said:

"We must crucify sinful character, but we can only control sinful flesh..."

character is the fruit of who we realy are...it is our actions...the way we behave...I checked it in all the biblical resources I have and the understanding you gave seems not to harmonize with the many resources. "The Old Man" is the carnal nature which the bible calls us to crucify...not our character...the character is the fruit of who we realy are...if I crucify the old man or carnal nature then the character will follow who I am...

Look at this verse in EPH 4:22

" that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
(The New American Standard Bible, 1995 Update)

then you wrote:

"but we can only control sinful flesh"

I do agree...in crucifing the old man or sinful nature, we control it...

"The flesh can only communicate sinful thoughts and feelings it cannot, however, commit sin."

According to Jesus, we can sin with our thoughts...

"The commission of sin is the stuff of character."

Care to explain the above quote...I don'r follow.

You wrote:

"In the Bible sinful character is called the "old man".

I think you are wrong here...sinful flesh or carnal flesh is called the "old man"...if I am wrong show me the passge.

You wrote:

"Do born again believers still have sinful thoughts and feelings? Yes and no. Yes in that *the flesh still sends them to our minds.*

what do you mean by *the flesh* in this context...the flesh in this context should mean the carnal mind of man...there is no logic in this statement.

No in that they are not our thoughts and feelings until we do or desire them. God does not hold us accountable for the sinful thoughts and feelings our sinful flesh puts in our minds - at least not until we do or desire them.

Once again what are you saying the sinful flesh is...the human fleshly body of man is not what is sinful but his earthly carnal mind is...

What do you think??? Or am I misunderstanding your posting??--frenchmon

Frenchmon, I get the idea you disagree with some of what I posted. And that's fine. I'm happy we can talk about it.

I don't have the resources to easily quote the supporting passages necessary to establish the difference between sinful flesh and sinful character. Perhaps Edward or someone else can help us with that?

The Bible and EGW speak about sinful flesh and the carnal old man mind and character in ways that leads me to believe they are two separate aspects of human nature. As I see it, sinful flesh is what we inherit. Whereas sinful character is what we ourselves cultivate.

Apparently, sinful flesh has, as it were, a mind of its own and is capable of sending unholy thoughts and feelings to our minds. And we develop sinful character as we do or desire these sinful suggestions.

From what I can gather God does not hold us accountable for the existence of the sinful thoughts and feelings that initially originate with our fallen flesh and appear in our minds in the form of temptations. Not until we do or desire them do we become accountable.

If I'm reading Rom 6-8, Gal 5, Eph 4, 2 Peter 1 and 1 John 3 correctly then I am encouraged to believe that it's possible to crucify my sinful traits of character by accepting Jesus as my personal Saviour and by receiving the gift of perfection through the indwelling Spirit empowering me to imitate the sinless example of my Lord.

I am also comforted to know that even though I have crucified the old man that the continued existence of sinful thoughts and feelings are merely temptations and are natural this side of receiving my new flesh body. Jesus Himself possessed sinful flesh and was able to live a life free from the defilement of sin.

There is actually a long recorded history regarding the differences between the mind and body, especially as it relates to the humanity of Jesus and converted Christians - Jones and Wagoner in particular wrote alot about it. Has anybody seen their material?

At any rate, does this clear things up?

Perhaps this will help. There are three things mortals after the fall are subject to untill they surrender to the call of Jesus.

1. The pull of fallen flesh & the effects of sin & it's power channeling through the five senses, and their effects upon & within fallen flesh.

2. The spirit or mind, heart(or affections & sympathies & loyalties & character of a person, by unconverted nature being in alliance with sin and it's author.)

3. The agencies of and the pull of temptations. Those temptations use a person's desires as targets to latch onto and try to induce the person to serve the tempter, thus reforming a league with him & against Jesus.

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Luke 22:40 And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation.

But Jesus is not without means to intervene.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

John 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

I would suggest starting with Elder Ralph Larson's book "The Word made flesh". There in He & his students took thousands of SOP references and topically compiled them. Then the three SOP volumns called Mind Character and Personality.
-----------SOP Passages--------

Chap. 42 - Christ's Humanity a Golden Chain

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Heb. 4:15. {OHC 48.1}

Christ's overcoming and obedience is that of a true human being. In our conclusions, we make many mistakes because of our erroneous views of the human nature of our Lord. When we give to His human nature a power that it is not possible for man to have in his conflicts with Satan, we destroy the completeness of His humanity. His imputed grace and power He gives to all who receive Him by faith. {OHC 48.2}

The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man. Man cannot overcome Satan's temptations without divine power to combine with his instrumentality. So with Jesus Christ; He could lay hold of divine power. He came not to our world to give the obedience of a lesser God to a greater, but as a man to obey God's Holy Law, and in this way He is our example. The Lord Jesus came to our world, not to reveal what a God could do, but what a man could do, through faith in God's power to help in every emergency. Man is, through faith, to be a partaker in the divine nature, and to overcome every temptation wherewith he is beset. {OHC 48.3}

The Lord now demands that every son and daughter of Adam, through faith in Jesus Christ, serve Him in human nature which we now have. The Lord Jesus has bridged the gulf that sin has made. He has connected earth with heaven, and finite man with the infinite God. Jesus, the world's Redeemer, could only keep the commandments of God in the same way that humanity can keep them. {OHC 48.4}

We are not to serve God as if we were not human, but we are to serve Him in the nature we have, that has been redeemed by the Son of God; through the righteousness of Christ we shall stand before God pardoned, and as though we had never sinned. {OHC 48.5}

The humanity of the Son of God is everything to us. It is the golden chain that binds our souls to Christ, and through Christ to God. {OHC 48.6}

Chap. 43 - An Advocate with the Father

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 1 John 2:1. {OHC 49.1}

How careful is the Lord Jesus to give no occasion for a soul to despair. How He fences about the soul from Satan's fierce attacks. If through manifold temptations we are surprised or deceived into sin, He does not turn from us and leave us to perish. No, no, that is not our Saviour.... He was tempted in all points like as we are; and having been tempted, He knows how to succor those who are tempted. Our crucified Lord is pleading for us in the presence of the Father at the throne of grace. His atoning sacrifice we may plead for our pardon, our justification, and our sanctification. The Lamb slain is our only hope. Our faith looks up to Him, grasps Him as the One who can save to the uttermost, and the fragrance of the all-sufficient offering is accepted of the Father. {OHC 49.2}

If you make failures and are betrayed into sin, do not feel then you cannot pray ... but seek the Lord more earnestly. {OHC 49.3}

The blood of Jesus is pleading with power and efficacy for those who are backslidden, for those who are rebellious, for those who sin against great light and love. Satan stands at our right hand to accuse us, and our Advocate stands at God's right hand to plead for us. He has never lost a case that has been committed to Him. We may trust in our Advocate; for He pleads His own merits in our behalf.... He is making intercession for the most lowly, the most oppressed and suffering, for the most tried and tempted ones. With upraised hands He pleads, "I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands." Isa. 49:16. {OHC 49.4}

I would I might sound the glad note to earth's remotest bounds. "If any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." Oh, precious redemption! How broad this great truth is-- that God for Christ's dear sake, forgives us the moment we ask Him in living faith, believing that He is fully able! {OHC 49.5}

Chap. 44 - Connecting Link Between God and Man

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. Heb. 7:25. {OHC 50.1}

Christ is the connecting link between God and man. He has promised His personal intercession by employing His name. He places the whole virtue of His righteousness on the side of the suppliant. Christ pleads for man, and man, in need of divine help, pleads for himself in the presence of God, using the power of the influence of the One who gave His life for the world. As we acknowledge before God our appreciation of Christ's merits, fragrance is given to our intercessions. Oh, who can value this great mercy and love! As we approach God through the virtue of Christ's merits, we are clothed with His priestly vestments. He places us close by His side, encircling us with His human arm, while with His divine arm He grasps the throne of the Infinite. He puts His merits, as sweet incense, in a censer in our hands, in order to encourage our petitions. He promises to hear and answer our supplications. {OHC 50.2}

Everyone who will break from the slavery and service of Satan, and will stand under the blood-stained banner of Prince Immanuel will be kept by Christ's intercessions. Christ, as our Mediator, at the right hand of the Father, ever keeps us in view, for it is as necessary that He should keep us by His intercessions as that He should redeem us with His blood. If He lets go His hold of us for one moment, Satan stands ready to destroy. {OHC 50.3}

As the prayers of the sincere and contrite ones ascend to heaven Christ says to the Father, "I will take their sins. Let them stand before You innocent." As He takes their sins from them, He fills their hearts with the glorious light of truth and love. {OHC 50.4}

Our need of Christ's intercession is constant. Day by day, morning and evening, the humble heart needs to offer up prayers to which will be returned answers of grace and peace and joy. "By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually." Heb. 13:15. {OHC 50.5}

Chap. 45 - Faultless in Christ's Perfection

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Cor. 5:21. {OHC 51.1}

Pardon and justification are one and the same thing. Through faith, the believer passes from the position of a rebel, a child of sin and Satan, to the position of a loyal subject of Christ Jesus, not because of an inherent goodness, but because Christ receives him as His child by adoption. The sinner receives the forgiveness of his sins, because these sins are borne by his Substitute and Surety. The Lord speaks to His heavenly Father, saying: "This is My child, I reprieve him from the condemnation of death, giving him My life insurance policy--eternal life--because I have taken his place and have suffered for his sins. He is even My beloved son." Thus man, pardoned, and clothed with the beautiful garments of Christ's righteousness, stands faultless before God.... {OHC 51.2}

It is the Father's prerogative to forgive our transgressions and sins, because Christ has taken upon Himself our guilt and reprieved us, imputing to us His own righteousness. His sacrifice satisfies fully the demands of justice. {OHC 51.3}

Many feel that their faults of character make it impossible for them to meet the standard that Christ has erected; but all that such ones have to do is to humble themselves at every step under the mighty hand of God; Christ does not estimate the man by the amount of work he does, but by the spirit in which the work is performed. {OHC 51.4}

When He sees men lifting the burdens, trying to carry them in lowliness of mind, with distrust of self and with reliance upon Him, He adds to their work His perfection and sufficiency, and it is accepted of the Father. We are accepted in the beloved. The sinner's defects are covered by the perfection and fullness of the Lord our righteousness. Those who with sincere will, with contrite heart, are putting forth humble efforts to live up to the requirements of God, are looked upon by the Father with pitying, tender love; He regards such as obedient children, and the righteousness of Christ is imputed unto them. {OHC 51.5}

Chap. 46 - The Faith that Justifies

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Rom. 5:1. {OHC 52.1}

Justification by faith is to many a mystery. A sinner is justified by God when he repents of his sins. He sees Jesus upon the cross of Calvary.... He looks to the atoning Sacrifice as his only hope, through repentance toward God--because the laws of His government have been broken--and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ as the One who can save and cleanse the sinner from every transgression. {OHC 52.2}

The mediatorial work of Christ commenced with the commencement of human guilt and suffering and misery, as soon as man became a transgressor. The law was not abolished to save man and bring him into union with God. But Christ assumed the office of his surety and deliverer in becoming sin for man, that man might become the righteousness of God in and through Him who was one with the Father. Sinners can be justified by God only when He pardons their sins, remits the punishment they deserve, and treats them as though they were really just and had not sinned, receiving them into divine favor and treating them as if they were righteous. They are justified alone through the imputed righteousness of Christ. The Father accepts the Son, and through the atoning sacrifice of His Son accepts the sinner.... {OHC 52.3}

There are thousands who believe in the gospel and in Jesus Christ as the world's Redeemer, but they are not saved by that faith.... They do not repent and have that faith that lays hold upon Christ as their sin-pardoning Saviour; their belief is not unto repentance.... {OHC 52.4}

The faith that justifies always produces first true repentance, and then good works, which are the fruit of that faith. There is no saving faith that does not produce good fruit. God gave Christ to our world to become the sinner's substitute. The moment true faith in the merits of the costly atoning sacrifice is exercised, claiming Christ as a personal Saviour, that moment the sinner is justified before God, because he is pardoned. {OHC 52.5}

Chap. 47 - Accepted in the Beloved

To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. Eph. 1:6. {OHC 53.1}

The Father gave all honor to His Son, seating Him at His right hand, far above all principalities and powers. He expressed His great joy and delight in receiving the Crucified One, and crowning Him with glory and honor. And all the favors He has shown to His Son in His acceptance of the great atonement, are shown to His people. Those who have united their interests in love with Christ are accepted in the Beloved. They suffered with Christ in His deepest humiliation, and His glorification is of great interest to them, because they are accepted in Him. God loves them as He loves His Son. Christ, Emmanuel, stands between God and the believer, revealing the glory of God to His chosen ones, and covering their defects and transgressions with the garments of His own spotless righteousness. {OHC 53.2}

"The Lord taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in them that hope in his mercy." Ps. 147:11. But it is only through the value of the sacrifice made for us that we are of value in the Lord's sight. It is because of the imputed righteousness of Christ that we are counted precious by God. For Christ's sake He pardons them that fear Him. He does not see in them the vileness of the sinner; He recognizes in them the likeness of His Son, in whom they believe. In this way only can God take pleasure in any of us. "As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." John 1:12. {OHC 53.3}

The more perfectly the Lord sees the character of His beloved Son revealed in His people, the greater is His satisfaction and delight in them. God Himself and the heavenly universe rejoice over them with singing, because Christ has not died for them in vain. The believing sinner is pronounced innocent, while the guilt is placed on Jesus Christ. The righteousness of Christ is placed on the debtor's account, and against his name on the balance sheet is written, Pardoned. Eternal Life. {OHC 53.4}

*************************
It's a big big subject hopefully this is a start. Ralph Larson's book covers Bible & SOP quotes that explain simaliarities and differences between sinful nature, sinful propencities, and fallen nature etc. It will put us all on the same page, to define basic definitions & terms from inspiration. Since that compiling and sorting out has already been done by that book, and several folks on MSDAOL can access their EGW CD Rom disks to look up & substanciate SOP refrences objectivly, I feel comfortable in using the work already done in preparing that book, here. It can be objectivly checked out by SOP from many person's searches.

It will take a while to both locate the book & pull up references that explain points. Can not stay up too late each morning or my circadian cycle wants to stay awake too long during the day. I have about reached my safe time limits for today. Bye for now, but the book is in the bookcase near the computer, so at least I don't have to hunt for it.

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Edward F Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F Sutton (edited July 09, 2001).]

Oh I looked up "perfection is" & got 29 hits, will give references later.

Also will seek to briefly define "moral perfection" through 3 areas.

1. How it is found in the human nature of Jesus. (Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.)

2. When spiritual rediness for Heaven is achived as far as attitude / motives. A person's life being cleansed of their individual sins is not being touched on by this definition . (John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.)

3. Whe completeness of christian character IS attained. Character equals thoughts & feelings. (Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.)

It is not an attempt to create the error of holy flesh. That change of "flesh"(human nature)is part of the change that happens AT the Second Coming.

Holy flesh error assumes that a person no longer sins because of a change in their human nature.

Biblical victory over sin shows that a person is rescued from dependance upon their weak nature, through the open door of partaking of Christ's victorious nature. In dependence upon His nature they conquer themselves and circumstances and are kept by Him, as they allow that through actively abiding in Him. The nature of that abiding is built to outreach to others in consert with Jesus, for the bulk of it's efforts.

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Edward F Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F Sutton (edited July 09, 2001).]

Edward, thanx a million for sharing all those quotations. What a blessing that you have those study aides so readily available. I too have read Ralph Larson's book - And the Word was made Flesh - what a super book. It certainly settled the matter for me beyond question. That is, Jesus possessed fallen flesh the same as we have, but never gave in to its clamorings, thus He remained undefiled.

Which is why I believe we begin at conversion where Christ began at conception. What the Bible says about born again believers it says about people walking in the Spirit and in the mind of the new man. Gal 5:16. To commit a known moral type of sin we must revert back to the mind of the old man and resurrect our former habits of sin. We commit sin in the mind of the old man - not in the mind of the new man. 1 John 3:9.

The flesh will continue to communicate sinful thoughts and feelings all up until the day Jesus rewards us with sinless flesh when He returns. But until then we must continue to keep our fallen flesh in subjection. 1 Cor 9:27 and Gal 5:24. Which is exactly what Jesus did throughout His life.

Does anyone else understand the Bible this way?

Mike...

what does the following verse mean to you??

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—" (Romans 5:12)

Frenchmon, great text. Gets to the heart of things, doesn't it. Thanx so much for bringing it up.

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—" (Romans 5:12)

First of all, I do not believe this passage means I was guilty before birth based on Adam eating the forbidden fruit. Nor do I believe it means that I was guilty after I was born because of Adam's sin. See Eze 18:20 and Deut 24:16.

Romans 5:19 says that we were "made sinners" because of Adam's transgression. To me this means I was born with the sinful clamorings of fallen flesh, and that before I am born again I naturally do and desire those sinful suggestions. And by reason of my own sins I am guilty before God and condemned by the law. "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Rom 3:23.

Romans 5:12, I believe, agrees with this understanding. Sin and death entered the world through the fall of Adam. All inherit his sinful flesh, consequently "all have sinned" (verse 12). Therefore all are guilty until they accept Jesus as their personal Saviour and enter into relationship with Him. See verses 18 and 19.

Is that how you see it?