" Every living Christian will advance daily in the divine life. As he ADVANCES TOWARD PERFECTION, HE EXPERIENCES A CONVERSION TO GOD EVERY DAY;
and THIS CONVERSION IS NOT COMPLETED UNTIL HE ATTAINS TO PERFECTION OF CHRISTIAN CHARACTER, a full preparation for the
finishing touch of immortality. . . . "

This says to me that my conversion is as real while I am imperfect, but it's a work in progress as opposed to a completed work. If I die before I attain perfection, while converted to god for that day, am I saved? Or must I have attained in order to receive immortality?

Or does Christ's sacrifice suffice where I have not attained?

The wonderful thing about the gospel is the fact that no matter where you are in your upward climb towards heaven, if you have your sins confessed and have a close relationship with Jesus you are saved should you die--just like the thief on the cross.

Jean, you mentioned the sanctuary and that it explains this matter nicely. And I agree. But I have found that many of the people who participate in this forum are not sure about the relationship between righteousness by faith and the sanctuary. They don't seem to see a clear connection.

Zyph, the quote you shared says that we advance daily in the "divine life." From what you said about this quote I got the impresson that you think advancement in the "divine life" means gradually overcoming our imperfections or defects of character. Is that what you meant?

I'm not sure that advancement in the "divine life" can be interpreted to mean sinning less and less until we finally sin no more. That sounds like evolution to me. Could it be that Jesus demonstrated what it means to advance in the "divine life" as He matured from childhood to manhood?

If so, then I would be inclined to believe advancement in the "divine life" means growing in grace, maturing in the fruit of the Spirit. Rather than becoming less and less imperfect over the course of a lifetime.

Would you agree with that? And please forgive me if I misunderstood what you meant.

Mike, the next sentence says, "As he ADVANCES TOWARD PERFECTION, HE EXPERIENCES A CONVERSION TO GOD EVERY DAY;
and THIS CONVERSION IS NOT COMPLETED UNTIL HE ATTAINS TO PERFECTION OF CHRISTIAN CHARACTER". Therefore the quote is about travelling from imperfection of christian character to perfection of christian character. Surely if we haven't attained a state of perfection, there is something wrong and still needing to be fixed?

Mike Lowe.

I think my answer to your questions are:

1. I don’t have my dictionary with me.

2. Morally perfect, spotless behavior, a state of sinless perfection.

3. Imparted.

4. The latter.

5. Yes!

6. The most probable I think are idolatry, jealousy, selfish ambition.

7. When they thrust God and gave themselves to Him and led by His Spirit.

The question is can we have this moral perfected character in this sinful body?

In His love

James S.

I read this today:
" To renounce their own will, perhaps their chosen object of
affection or pursuit, requires an effort, at which many hesitate
and falter and turn back. Yet this battle must be fought by
every heart that is truly converted. We must war against
temptations without and within. We must gain the victory over
self, crucify the affections and lusts;

** and then begins the
union of the soul with Christ. . . . **" (Sorry - I cut and pasted, then deleted the original, so I don't have the reference.)

It looks like only after we get good, are we regarded as being converted, so you're right, Mike. But if only converted people are saved, why is there all this reassurance that we are regarded as perfect even if we haven't arrived at perfection? Isn't it a lie to say we are saved when we aren't converted? And where are the weak people supposed to find strength if they can't unite their souls with Christ until after they're perfect? It's very discouraging. And God doesn't hear the prayers of sinners. What are we supposed to do?

Zyph, you ask an extremely important question. Which is great. It means you are willing to let truth be truth, and that you truly seek to understand it. Too often we try to force truth to agree with our view of it, instead of changing our view to agree with the truth.

As I understand it, moral perfection is a gift we receive the moment we completely surrrender ourselves to Jesus. Depending on the person it might take many months to many years to make this commitment. Many never do.

Once we come to the place where we would rather die than to knowingly cling to some pet sin we receive the gift of moral perfection. It's not something we work at until we finally get it right. It's a free gift, as free as salvation itself.

Since it is a free gift it in no way depends on our ability to achieve it. It has nothing to with our individual weaknesses or former imperfections. Being perfect has nothing to do with who we were before we received it as a gift. We don't achieve moral perfection, rather we receive it as a free gift.

Although we are born again morally perfect we not born again morally mature. We are babes in Christ. We begin at conversion where Christ began at conception. And just as Jesus matured from childhood to manhood, so to we must grow in grace, maturing in the fruit of the Spirit.

As long as we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man we are just as morally perfect as was Jesus. All of the promises of perfection are true of the new man. As long as we are in the mind of the new man we are experiencing the gift of moral perfection.

But should we resurrect the mind of the old man and revert back to sin we are no longer experiencing the promises of moral perfection. At this point, we must accept the gift of repentance which empowers us to confess and forsake our sin, which in turn gives Jesus the legal right to pardon us and to restore us back to the mind of the new man.

The mind of the new man does not die every time we revert back to the mind of the old man. As long as we quickly return to the new man mind very little is lost. We pick back up right where we left off. We are not reconverted everytime we bounce back and forth between the new and old man mind.

Conversion happens when we receive the sinless mind of the new man. This conversion deepens as we mature in the fruit of the Spirit, but we are not literally converted anew every day. When Ellen White says we must be converted every day, I take it to mean we must maintain our conversion every day. Which is similar to Paul's - "I die daily."

We do not mature evenly across the board. Each person is different. One might mature more rapidly in this gift, and another in that. But all of us when we are converted receive all the fruit of the Spirit. It's just that some mature faster than others.

Again, we are not born again morally mature. Yes, we are born again morally perfect, that is, morally complete, which is to say we possess all the fruit of the Spirit at the moment we receive the sinless seed of the new man. From that moment on we must grow and mature in same manner Jesus did.

We may find ourselves in and out of the old man, back and forth between sin and righteousness, but this doesn't prove us unconverted. People who have never been born again do not have the option of bouncing between the new and old man because they haven't ever received the gift of the new man mind.

Christians who struggle with wondering if they have ever been born again need only ask themselves - Am I clinging to any known moral defect of character? Am I making excuses for my failures, or am I claiming the promises of God? Am I consumed with my failures, or am I keeping my eyes on Jesus?

If a person can answer these kinds of questions in harmony with the Word of God, then they have every right to claim 1 John 5:13. Walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man means keeping our eyes on Jesus while claiming the promises of God. So long as we do this we are morally perfect in the fullest sense of the promise.

What do you think?

If it's not our behaviour which matures and improves, what grows? If we are already perfect, what more needs to be done?

"The sum and substance of the whole matter of Christian grace
and experience is contained in believing on Christ, in knowing
God and His Son whom He has sent."

And how do statements like this not contradict other statements saying we must grit our teeth and work at changing our behaviour?

"begins the union of the soul with Christ" ( 5 spots found)
{FLB 135.5};{AG 321.5};{LHU 340.4};{5T 47.1};{PH117 21.3}

Here's a new spin to add to the discussion.

"How few bear in mind that the tempter was once a covering cherub, a being whom God created for His own name's glory. Satan fell from his high position through self-exaltation; he misused the high capabilities with which God had so richly endowed him. He fell for the same reason that thousands are falling today, because of an ambition to be first, an unwillingness to be under restraint. The Lord would teach man the lesson that, though united in church capacity, he is not saved until the seal of God is placed upon him. . . . {7BC 969.3}

The Lord has a work for us all to do. And if the truth is not rooted in the heart, if the natural traits of character are not transformed by the Holy Spirit, we can never be colaborers with Jesus Christ. Self will constantly appear, and the character of Christ will not be manifested in our lives." (Letter 80, 1898). {7BC 969.4}& {11MR 367.2}

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Edward F Sutton