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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77323
07/20/06 04:25 AM
07/20/06 04:25 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Both are correct.
Christ is the Son in respect to his Father, and he is Creator in respect to the rest of the Creation. To take one as exclusive over the other is amiss, and denies the very means by which he created. It is the Father who created through the Son.
His Father is his God, and he is God to the rest of Creation. To take one to the exclusion of the other is amiss, and denies the very meaning of Son or Father.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77324
07/20/06 04:33 AM
07/20/06 04:33 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
Obviously we cannot conceive of what existence apart from space/time consists of, but it seems clear to me that it must have been created because otherwise we would never have gotten here,
If we cannot conceive of it, then we should leave it alone. It would go 'before the beginning' and we are not invited there. "In the beginning" already establishes time and space. Let us leave it at that. That beginning also establishes a time factor on "Father" and "Son" concept in its very nature.
God has not chosen to give us an inconceivable revelation.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77325
07/20/06 04:37 AM
07/20/06 04:37 AM
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Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Eternally self-existent is also self-contradictory to being a Son.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77326
07/20/06 04:56 AM
07/20/06 04:56 AM
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Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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To say that one has no beginning is to say that one has not been born. To say that one has not been born is to say that one is not a Son.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77327
07/20/06 12:57 PM
07/20/06 12:57 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Quote:
His Father is his God, and he is God to the rest of Creation. To take one to the exclusion of the other is amiss, and denies the very meaning of Son or Father.
This would sertainly imply a pantheon, a hiearchy of gods, would it not? Making the difference between christianity and say greek paganism not one of character but merely of numbers, them having a larger pantheon than us.
1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
1Jo 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77328
07/20/06 10:40 PM
07/20/06 10:40 PM
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Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Thomas, to be Son of God takes spirit and character; to be self existent does not. That is what the fellowship to which we are called to is all about.
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, … I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one;
The scriptures you quoted are poignant with the point that I am presenting.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77329
07/21/06 01:52 PM
07/21/06 01:52 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Old Tom:Obviously we cannot conceive of what existence apart from space/time consists of, but it seems clear to me that it must have been created because otherwise we would never have gotten here,
Old John:If we cannot conceive of it, then we should leave it alone.
Tom:We can't conceive of divinity being born, so this suggestion would apply to that as well, wouldn't it?
I don't agree that eternally self-existent is self-contradictory with being a Son. I would follow a different line of reasoning than you are. You're reasonsing seems to be:
a.We know what "son" means by our own human sonship.
b.We know that Christ is God's Son.
c.Therefore Christ could not be self-existent.
My reasoning would be:
a.We know Christ is self-existent.
b.We know that Christ is God's Son.
c.Therefore Christ's divine sonship is not exactly like human sonship.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77330
07/21/06 07:54 PM
07/21/06 07:54 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
We can't conceive of divinity being born,
Why not? It is plainly explained as I have done, unless you have a different concept of divinity.
Quote:
I don't agree that eternally self-existent is self-contradictory with being a Son. I would follow a different line of reasoning than you are.
My reasoning does not follow the line you suggested. My reasoning follows the line of salvation and revelation. It is not those who are born of the flesh who are the sons of God, but those which are born of the spirit are the sons of God. If Christ is born of the Father's spirit, then that establishes that he is not “self”-existent, but “Father”-existent; as he plainly says: “I live by the Father”. If he is not born of the Father’s spirit then you can say; he is ‘self’-existent. I would like to draw attention to the fact that Christ put forth that Satan is “self”-existent; doing his own, being the 'father' of lies. There is nothing in the life of the Son of God ever, which even remotely suggests that he does anything of self, that you may infer ‘self’-existence.
In regards to your line of thought:
a. Please provide scripture that even suggests that Christ is self-existent; better yet from Christ’s own words. Please do not use extrapolation from name: YHWH.
b. Good!
c. Christ’s Son ship is the same as the one being offered to us. That which makes a son is spirit and not physics. His birth is the same as that being offered to us.
Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77331
07/21/06 09:54 PM
07/21/06 09:54 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Did divinity create space/time? Or is space/time as eternal as divinity? If divinity created space/time, then Christ must preceed it, and if so, how does it make any sense to say there was a time when Christ did not exist? I know this is repeating things, but the idea that Christ created all things, yet was Himself created is not making any sense to me. That is, I don't see how Christ could have created space/time. It seems like you'd have to take the point of view that space/time is eternal, which has its own problems. It seems to me that Waggoner's arguments, all based on Scripture, are completely sound. Assuming they are sound, Christ is not a created being. It seems to me to be an audacious claim that we can conceive of divininty being born. It seems to me what is really being conceived is not divinity being born, but an idea of some creature being born, and that idea being considered to be divinity being born. Regarding Christ's being self-existent, how would you prove from Scripture that God is self-existent? There's no text that says, "I am God. I am self-existent." You'd have to get to this by reason, concluding that if God is before all things and God created all things, it must be the case that God is self-existent. It seems to me whatever argument you could make about God being self-existent, you could make about Christ. John says that in the beginning Christ was with God, was God, and that all things were made by Him, and that without Him nothing that was made was made. Given these things are true, how could it not be the case that Christ was self-existent? Regarding Christ speaking in His own words: Quote:
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty (Rev. 1:8).
Again, there is no text which says, "I am self-existent" but this seems to me to be saying precisely that. Proclaiming oneself to be the first, the last, who was, who is, and who is to come seems like the way to say "self-existent" without using those words.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77332
07/22/06 12:03 AM
07/22/06 12:03 AM
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OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
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Gordon.
Quote.
The Father and the Son are separate persons, separate physical beings.
Unquote.
I think maybe what you mean is they are separate Persons as separate spiritual beings ?
But at least you have said that the Father and the Son are two separate persons, i.e. the Father and the Son, the God and the Lord, the One that sit on the throne (God) and the Lamb that stands amid of the elders (Christ).
Quote.
Christ was the Son of God since He was brought forth in the days of eternity
Unquote.
This makes you stand in line with David , which throws out the same idea, only John B . is the one here that dare to proceed further by giving an idea that Christ is not self existent , which stands against Tom E. view.
Very interesting, because at least I can came to a picture that there are two different personalities of the Godhead, one is God the Father, and one is the Son of God and the other one-the Holy Spirit is the spirit of God.
Should there be three personalities or just two , considering that the Holy Spirit is just the spirit of God the Father?
In His love
James S
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