Charlene,

If we are born again first and then we start the process of laying aside our moral defects of character how should we understand passages like -

1 John 3:9

Galatians 5:16-24

Ephesians 4:21-24

1 Peter 2:21,22 and 4:1,2

Also, if this is true then at what point is Jesus our example? before or after we cease from sin? 1 Peter 4:1,2.

I must answer a question with a question:
What will make the sinner want to change his life at all, from a sinner to a saint, if it is not the “New Birth.” What will start the new seed to grow? Only the Holy Spirit can make a change, a transformation in the life of a sinner. This is not accomplished all at once. The Holy Spirit convicts and converts, and the changes take place. What will kill the old man if it is not the new man winning battle after battle in the ‘great controversy?’ When the life is ‘hidden in Christ’ the growth is a steady victorious life. Unless the saint gets weary and chooses to give up his walk with God.

1Pe 2:21 :For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:”

Charlene: The seed of Christ, when watered in the heart…looks to Jesus as our example. What else could we pattern our lives after and be in His care? When we experience the New Birth, Our desire it to be like Him and Follow Him. Only in His Strength is this possible. The saints were preordained to follow Jesus, He died for all, but God gave man a choice and some choose to be sinners rather than saints.

1Pe 4:1 “Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.”

Charlene:Jesus was born with our human sinful flesh. But He chose to live His life in the Spirit, following His Father’s will and He tells us we can make this choice and follow His Father’s will in His strength. Phi 2:5 “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:”

Eph 4:21 "If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."

Christ's Object Lessons-- Without a Wedding Garment====PG- 311
“…….When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah.”
Gal 5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

Charlene:
When a sinner gives his life to Christ….the Walk in the spirit begins. It can’t be any other way, because to “convert” means to change in direction., turning from the path to Hell to the path to Heaven. To begin to love what you hated and hate what you once loved. We crucify our flesh at baptism, and learn each day what the spirit convicts us to crucify…..we die daily because we draw closer to God in the knowledge of God on a daily basis as we grow in Grace. The ladder of His Gifts are one step at a time and we will be judged by others by our fruits…Work of righteousness come from a righteous man. Works of filthy rags come from those buried alive, and still living and walking in the flesh. The fruits of the spirit shown in the lives of the saints will be the test of those that have crucified the flesh and are walking in the spirit. Like the example of our Redeemer.

Read the following very slow and prayerfully, rmembering that truths do not come all at once:

Advent Review and Sabbath Herald---DT- 06-28-92
Gospel Hearers--No. 5: Good-ground Hearers

"What an encouragement it is that the sower is not always to meet with disappointment. The seed is sometimes received into honest hearts. The hearer comprehends the truth, and does not resist the Holy Spirit or refuse to receive the impression of truth upon his heart. He feels he must be true to God, and true to himself. He receives the truth into the heart, and it
accomplishes its transforming work upon the character. He is not able to change his own heart, but the Holy Spirit, through his obedience to the truth, sanctifies the soul.

The good heart does not mean a heart without sin; for the gospel is to be preached to the lost. Jesus says, "I came not to call the righteous, but
sinners to repentance." The convicted sinner sees himself a transgressor in the great moral mirror, God's holy law. He looks upon the Saviour, upon the cross of Calvary, and asks why this great sacrifice was made; and the cross points to the holy law of God, which has been transgressed. It was to save the transgressor from ruin that he who was co-equal with God, offered up his life on Calvary. "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting
life." The law has no power to pardon the evil-doer; but Jesus has taken the sins of the transgressor upon himself, and as a sinner exercises faith in him as his sacrifice, Christ imputes his own righteousness to the guilty one.
There has been but one way of salvation since the days of Adam. "There is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." We have no reason to fear while we are looking to Jesus, believing that he is able to save all who come unto him."

I see the answer of "When do we experience moral perfection?" is:

When the seed begins to take root, justificatin, "new Birth" For we are told, "we may be perfect every step along the way" when we are climbing on the ladder of sanctification, we are Hidden in Christ at each step. Not completed or matured but perfect all along the way until fitted [complete and matured] for translation.

Sometimes we fall off the ladder, we than must go back to be justified again and start anew on the road of reformation. David is a good example of this. But praise the Lord, He gives the gift of true repentance.

I just discovered this thread and haven't had time to read clear through it, but I'll post the results of my study as to when we receive moral perfection. The answer, I believe, is in the Sanctuary.

"Thy way, O God, is in the Sanctuary." Psalm 77:13.

"Send thee help from the Sanctuary." Psalm 20:2. God is going to send us a lot of help from the Sanctuary. Through the Sanctuary is how we are perfected.

The Meaning of the Sanctuary

Justification

When one walked into the sanctuary, the first thing they saw was the big altar where the lambs were sacrificed. This alter represents the cross, since that is where Jesus, the Lamb of God, died. Here is where justification takes place. When we bring all our sins to the foot of the cross and ask for forgiveness (just like ancient Israel did when they slew the lamb) then we have just participated in justification. This is where we receive righteousness on the credit card principle. We aren't actually righteous, but the blood of Jesus covers our sins and His life covers ours, so that when Jesus looks at us all He sees is His own perfect life. Should our lives be snuffed out at this point, we are saved. In fact, the thief on the cross was saved through justification as he didn't have time to participate in sanctification. Here are some quotes about justification. “Let no one take the limited, narrow position that any of the works of man can help in the least possible way to liquidate the debt of his transgression. This is a fatal deception. If you would understand it, you must cease haggling over your pet ideas, and with humble hearts survey the atonement. This matter is so dimly comprehended that thousands upon thousands claiming to be sons of God are children of the wicked one, BECAUSE THEY WILL DEPEND ON THEIR OWN WORKS.” 1 SM p. 343. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8.

Baptism

The next article of furniture one saw was the laver where the priests washed before entering the sanctuary. This represents baptism. After we confess our sins and decide to become Christians, we are baptized.

Sanctification

The next articles of furniture are in the Holy Place--the 12 loaves of bread on the table, the alter of incense, and the candlestick. The bread represents Jesus as the Bread of Life. It also represents the Bible as the Word of Jesus. Interestingly, someone pointed out once that there were 2 piles of 6 loaves of bread each on this table, representing 66--which is the number of books in the Bible. The alter of incense represents the prayers of God's people and the incense represents the Holy Spirit purifying those prayers so they can reach the throne of God. The candlestick represents Jesus as the Light of the World and the oil in the candlestick represents the Holy Spirit. This whole room represents sanctification. We grow in our Christian walk through studying the Bible, through prayer, and through a relationship with Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit. Here are some quotes about sanctification. “The so-called faith that does not WORK by love and purify the soul will not justify any man.” ST May 19, 1898. “Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith BY MY WORKS. Ye see then how that BY WORKS a man is justified, and not by faith only.” James 2:18, 24.

Purification

The next room is the Most Holy Place which contained the Ark of the Covenant holding the Law of God. This Ark represents the throne of God. This room was only entered on the Day of Atonement, or Judgment Day, when the priest cleaned the blood off the alter in the courtyard and brought it in to the Most Holy Place, thus cleansing the sanctuary of all sin. This is the phase that I spoke of in my above post. Here's another interesting thought. I believe that anything in the Most Holy Place has a vital role in the Judgment. For instance, this room contained the Law of God which is the standard by which we are judged.

However, many people disregard the Mosaic Law which was placed in the side of the Ark. They say that by putting it there it is not so important and in fact was done away with. Well, Ellen White disagrees with this. Here's what she says. "Christ gave to Moses religious precepts which were to govern everyday life. These statutes were explicitly given to guard the ten commandments. THEY WERE NOT SHADOWY TYPES TO PASS AWAY WITH THE DEATH OF CHRIST. They were to be binding upon men in every age as long as time should last. These commands were enforced by the power of the moral law, and they clearly and definitely explained that law." ST April 15, 1875.

Here's another quote of Ellen White's that says that same thing. "That the obligations of the Decalogue might be more fully understood and enforced, additional precepts were given, illustrating and applying the principles of the Ten Commandments. These laws were called judgments, both because they were framed in infinite wisdom and equity and because the magistrates were to give judgment according to them. Unlike the Ten Commandments, they were delivered privately to Moses, who was to communicate them to the people." PP p. 310.

We have attended a Messianic Jewish congregation at times, and they told us the very same thing. They said that the Ten Commandments are like the chapter headings in a book, and the Mosaic Law is the detail of each chapter. Without the Mosaic Law, we are left guessing as to what God means by each commandment. For instance, in the Mosaic Law it says that if we dig a pit and our neighbor's cow falls into it and dies, then we are to pay our neighbor for this cow. This comes under the Ten Commandment of "Thou shalt not steal." Without this Mosaic Law, one could argue that they did not directly steal this cow from his neighbor and therefore did not have to pay his neighbor. But, with this Mosaic Law, one sees that anything that we do that causes our neighbor loss is considered stealing in God's eyes. Do you begin to understand the importance of the Mosaic Law?

Now, here's a quote showing a little more the importance of the Mosaic Law in our day. The closing words of Malachi are a prophecy regarding the work that should be done preparatory to the first and the second advent of Christ. This prophecy is introduced with the admonition, "Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. {SW, March 21, 1905 par. 1} This quote is from Malachi 4. Read all of Malachi 4 and see that this whole chapter is dealing with end-time events and then in the middle of this chapter is this interesting statement to remember the Mosaic Law. Here God and Ellen White are saying that the last generation should especially remember the Mosaic Law!

Yes, some things were done away with at the cross from this Mosaic Law. However, we should let the Bible itself tell us what was done away with. The only place in the whole Bible that specifically says what was done away with at the cross is Daniel 9:27 where it says that the Messiah would end the sacrifices and oblations (meaning offerings--like the grain and wine offerings that went along with the sacrificial system). I did a study on the word "ceremonial" on the Ellen White CD and over and over she defines "ceremonial" as being the "sacrificial system" and many times she then goes on to quote Daniel 9:27.

We who are going to face the Judgment of the Living need to especially understand the Mosaic Law and its great importance to us. It simply defines the Ten Commandments further that we not err! If we are going to have our sins blotted out and stand through the time of trouble without an intercessor, we need every advantage we can get! I believe this is why the Mosaic Law is in the Most Holy Place. Remember, anything in the Most Holy Place is of special importance for the Day of Atonement--the Day of Judgment.

Since God says in the NT that we are the temple (sanctuary) of God, then the whole sanctuary is simply a representation of how God saves us, what His part is, and what our part is. So simple and so beautiful! Thus, when the sanctuary is cleansed on the Day of Atonement this means that on our Judgment Day God will cleanse us of all sin and remove it forever from us. This is purification. Look up the word "purify" in the Ellen White CD and you will see that she speaks a lot of God's Church (His true people wherever they are) being purified during the time of the last generation. She also says that only when God's people "fully reflect" the character of Jesus will He come. Well, I look around, and I don't see anyone who is perfect. I believe that under sanctification we can reach the point where we no longer willfully sin, but sin is sin, and we can still unknowingly commit sin, thus preventing us from being perfect. So, God is going to have to do something special for the last generation in order to enable them to stand without an intercessor during the time of trouble because ANY SIN committed during this time, even if it is done unknowingly, will not have an intercessor so this sin can be forgiven, thus preventing this person from being saved.

Here's some of Ellen White quotes to this effect. "Those only who through faith in Christ OBEY ALL of God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression." 6BC 1118. "Satan could find nothing in the Son of God that would enable him to gain the victory. He had kept His Father's commandments, and there was no sin in Him that Satan could use to his advantage. THIS IS THE CONDITION IN WHICH THOSE MUST BE FOUND WHO SHALL STAND IN THE TIME OF TROUBLE. GC p. 623. "None who have had the light of truth will enter the city of God as commandment breakers. His law lies at the foundation of His government in earth and in heaven. If they have knowingly trampled upon and despised His law on the earth, they will not be taken to heaven to do the same work there; THERE IS NO CHANGE OF CHARACTER WHEN CHRIST COMES." RH, August 25, 1885. "The mass of people think that if a person is prepared to die, he is prepared for the coming of the Lord. But they do not consider the difference between dying and standing alive to meet the Lord at His appearing. It is one thing to die in the Lord, to yield our spirits to Him while He is pleading for us before the Father's throne, and quite a different thing to stand in the time of trouble after Jesus has ceased to plead in man's behalf, after His priesthood is closed, and He is preparing to come to redeem His own, and take vengeance on His foes. They who realize these things will bless heaven that MEANS HAVE BEEN DEVISED IN THE MERCY OF GOD FOR THE PERFECTION OF THE SAINTS." Life Sketches of James and Ellen White, 1888 edition, p. 431. (This quote is one that got me to thinking that there is something different that happens for the last generation that does not happen for previous generations.)

What means has been devised for our perfection? Here it is. "As we seek God for the Holy Spirit, it will work in us meekness, humbleness of mind, a conscious dependence upon God for the PERFECTING LATTER RAIN." RH March 2, 1897.

Glorification

Glorification is simply when our bodies are changed and we are given immortality. When we are perfected, our MINDS are changed, but when we are given immortality our BODIES are changed. When does this happen? At the second coming. See 1 Corinthians 15:51-55.

Justification happens in a moment--the moment we confess our sins. Sanctification is the work of a lifetime. Purification happens in a day--our DAY of Atonement. See Zechariah 4:9. And, lastly, glorification happens in a moment.

I will submit to you that any gospel that eliminates out any of the above steps is a gospel that presents a false balance. For instance, many in our church now preach justification only to the exclusion of sanctification. This produces cheap grace. Then, there is another smaller group who preach mostly sanctification--to the exclusion of justification. This produces legalism. But it is only when we combine all 4 steps that we see the perfect balance. Both groups hate this message. Why? Because the cheap grace group see that they will have to do more than they thought to enter heaven--which is sanctification. The legalist group see that they cannot "work" their way to heaven because sanctification alone will never get them to perfection. But, when all four are combined what beauty and what harmony we see! Also, when I finally understood this message, my fear for the time of trouble was removed. My biggest fear was that I would not make it through the time when Jesus is no longer interceding without sinning. Why? Because I could scarcely make it through a day without sinning now. Even if one produces "correct" outward behavior, if their motives were thoroughly analyzed, somewhere in the motives is an element of selfishness. That is because "all our righteousness is as filthy rags."

For me, this message has given me peace and a deeper love for my Savior whom I know is in heaven working at this moment for me in the sanctuary, and when my Day of Atonement comes up, He will perfect me if I have been participating in justification and sanctification (see Hebrews 10:14. Hallelujah!

In the context of the last post, can someone tell me who went into the holy place? Was it the common man, or did the priest, ONLY, minister in there?

We all, by faith, are to move thru the sanctuary. The entire plan of salvation is taught by the sanctuary doctrine in symbols. There is three parts to the sanctuary message, Justification, Sanctification and Glorification.

This is not a Sanctuary topic/study....the answer to the question of this thread is: If we are hid in God's love and covered by His righteousness....we are perfect in Christ from the time we enter thru the door[Christ] into the courtyard and thru the two apartments. Reaching maturity in the Most Holy Place....By faith this is done in cooperation with God for all saints that have submitted to the will of God.

The illustration of the sanctuary has been used to demonstrate the steps in the process of conversion, so it is on topic. And if we freely use the symbolism of the old sanctuary service, what I want to know is, did the common man enter the sanctuary, or was all the work symbolised by the candlesticks, etc, done by the priest? I don't know the answer, so I'm asking. If the priest did it all then, why would we do it now?

The common priests ministered daily in the Holy Apartment of the Sanctuary and only the High Priest entered the Most Holy once a year. The people only went in as far as the courtyard.

"Light was to be given, directing their minds to the temple of God in heaven; and as they should by faith follow their High Priest in His ministration there, new duties would be revealted." Great Controversy p. 425.

"And all who through the testimony of the Scriptures acept the same truths, following Christ by faith as He enters in before God to perform the last work of mediation, and at its close to receive His kingdom--all these are represented as going in to the marriage." Great Controversy p. 427-428.

"How much more essential in this antitypical Day of Atonement that we understand the work of our High Priest and know what duties are required of us." Great Controversy p. 431.

I used to wonder what the above quotes meant. Now I think I know. Because as we follow Jesus in His ministration in the Sanctuary it reveals to us the true gospel--what He is doing to save us and what our part is. What I outlined in my previous post is the study of following Jesus as He moves to the different apartments and what happens in each and what He does and what we are to do.

It is very important for us to know the spiritual application of the sanctuary service...the cleansing of the heavenly temple must correspond to the cleansing of our hearts. God returns for a pure people and this is the purification time....the cleansing of the sanctuary is the cleansing of the 'soul temple'Cleansing Sanctuary---cleansing soul temple

Manuscript Releases Volume Eleven
Christ's Work in the Sanctuary---PG- 54
"Cleansing the Heavenly Sanctuary and the Soul-Temple"
--"Godliness, sobriety, and consistency will characterize the life and example of every true Christian. The work which Christ is doing in the sanctuary above will
engage the thoughts and be the burden of the conversation, because by faith he has entered into the sanctuary. He is on earth, but his sympathies are in harmony with the work that Christ is doing in heaven. Christ is cleansing the heavenly sanctuary from the sins of the people, and it is the work of all who are laborers together with God to be cleansing the sanctuary of the soul from everything that is offensive to Him. Everything like evil surmising, envy, jealousy, enmity, and hatred, will be put away, for such things grieve the Holy Spirit of God and put Christ to an open shame. Love of self will not exist, nor will any engaged in this work be puffed up. The example of Christ's life, the consistency of his character, will make his influence far-reaching. He will be a living epistle, known and read of all men."--Ms. 15, 1886, pp. 2, 3. ("Christian Integrity in the Ministry," n.d.) White Estate Washington, D. C. July 9, 1981

The Sanctuary doctrine is one of the most important topics to learn. It is a saving soul study. We can't learn too much about it.