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Re: A Bible Study on Vegetarianism
[Re: Will]
#86562
03/17/07 11:42 PM
03/17/07 11:42 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Looks like we have some major issues here: #1 MR No. 1134 - In the Mountains of Colorado
(Written in the Colorado mountains, diary entry for September 28, 1873.)
Brother Glover left the camp today to go for supplies. We are getting short of provisions. We got him the best we could for his meals on the way. He was to send Mr. Walling immediately and to get our mail. A young man from Nova Scotia had come in from hunting. He had a quarter of deer. He had traveled 20 miles with this deer upon his back. The remainder of the deer he had left hung up in the woods. He saw six elk but did not try to shoot them as he knew he could not carry them out. He gave us a small piece of the meat, which we made into broth. Willie shot a duck which came in a time of need, for our supplies were rapidly diminishing.--Manuscript 11, 1873.
Ellen G. White Estate Washington, D.C. April 11, 1985 {14MR 353.1}
On another forum people are talking about whether the duck is a clean or unclean creature, so they ate duck and deer. Would any of you eat meat in this situation? Or would you injure your body, which by the way would be violating the health laws, which is like breaking one of the 10 commandments. A paradox don't you think, at least for those who believe eating meat is a sin? #2
ONCE WHEN ELLEN WHITE WAS ILL, HER SON, W. C. WHITE, REPORTS THAT SHE WAS ENCOURAGED TO DRINK A LITTLE OYSTER BROTH TO SETTLE HER STOMACH. SHE IS SAID TO HAVE TRIED A SPOONFUL OR TWO, BUT THEN REFUSED THE REST. THERE IS HOWEVER, EVIDENCE THAT AT ONE POINT IN HER LIFE MRS. WHITE MOST LIKELY ATE SOME OYSTERS. IN 1882, WHEN SHE WAS LIVING AT HEALDSBURG, CALIFORNIA, SHE WROTE A LETTER TO HER DAUGHTER-IN-LAW, MARY KELSEY WHITE, IN OAKLAND, IN WHICH SHE MADE THE FOLLOWING REQUEST: "Mary, if you can get me a good box of herrings, fresh ones, please do so. These last ones that Willie got are bitter and old. If you can buy cans, say, half a dozen cans, of good tomatoes, please do so. We shall need them. If you can get a few cans of good oysters, get them." {MR852 2.3}
ELLEN WHITE KEPT IT NO SECRET THAT UNDER DIFFICULT CIRCUMSTANCES, AS WHEN SHE TRAVELED OR WHEN SHE WAS ENTERTAINED IN HER TRAVELS, SHE ATE SOME MEAT. THE BOOK, COUNSELS ON DIET AND FOODS, PUBLISHED IN 1938, CARRIES HER ACCOUNT OF HER RELATION TO THE USE OF MEAT AFTER THE HEALTH REFORM VISION WAS GIVEN TO HER AS FOLLOWS: "I at once cut meat out of my bill of fare. After that I was at times placed where I was compelled to eat a little meat." THIS IS IN HARMONY WITH HER EARLIER PUBLISHED STATEMENT WHICH APPEARED IN 1890 IN THE BOOK, CHRISTIAN TEMPERANCE AND BIBLE HYGIENE, READING, "When I could not obtain the food I needed, I have sometimes eaten a little meat; but I am becoming more and more afraid of it." {MR852 2.4}
BUT BEYOND THIS THERE IS EVIDENCE OF SOME LAXNESS IN THE 1870'S AND 1880'S WHICH ALLOWED A LITTLE MEAT TO APPEAR ON HER TABLE WHEN IT MAY NOT HAVE BEEN ESSENTIAL. GIVEN THE DIFFICULTIES OF REFRIGERATING AND TRANSPORTING FOOD IN THE NINETEENTH CENTURY, IT WAS A MUCH GREATER PROBLEM THEN TO GAIN AN ADEQUATE DIET WITHOUT USING FLESH FOODS. IN THE EARLY 1890'S MRS. WHITE EXPRESSED HER DISTASTE FOR MEAT WHILE EN ROUTE TO AUSTRALIA. SHE WROTE: "They have an abundance of food in the meat line, prepared in different ways; but as I do not enjoy a meat diet, it leaves me rather meager fare." {MR852 2.5}
We all know oysters are not clean. How do you respond to the obvious consumption of flesh done by Sister White when she was alive? It's not like its a lie, or to be hidden, but what do you tell people, while telling them that eating meat is a sin. We have 2 instances where God used people while living in sin?! MM is going to fall out of his rocking chair on this one. Any thoughts? We can lay to rest any attempts at making the above information at Daniel & Ellen White's meat eating to be fabricated or anything else..So please do indulgeus, at least me. I am always willing to learn,but not at the cost of Fear Uncertainty and Doubt imposed by the presenters.
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Re: A Bible Study on Vegetarianism
[Re: gordonb1]
#86563
03/17/07 11:47 PM
03/17/07 11:47 PM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Glad you aren't referring to me Gordon, cause I don't eat meat. Oh by the way are you aware that Hitler was a vegetarian? WIll
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Re: A Bible Study on Vegetarianism
[Re: gordonb1]
#86564
03/17/07 11:56 PM
03/17/07 11:56 PM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Gordon, Adam and Eve lost paradise through disobedience. You missed the whole point, of why we are in this mess to begin with, it wasn't because they ate something. It was because they disobeyed God. Will
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Re: A Bible Study on Vegetarianism
[Re: Cheri Fritz]
#86565
03/17/07 11:59 PM
03/17/07 11:59 PM
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Greetings,
This evening, I am not sure what to say to some of you..., except that I presented the Bible Study according to the scriptures that I know. And my heart aches when so many call themselves Adventists and do not accept our prophet's testimony for what the Lord wants.
The joy of the Lord is for us as a people to be prepared to live in heaven today. To be examples of the believer.
With regards to comparing the Passover lamb and lusting...My heart sinks yet more:(.
"So is every unhealthy activity a sin?" All that I can say is that God teaches us to know as His people what is right and what is wrong. That in order for us to know right from wrong, we have to study, pray and ask for the Holy Spirit to teach us all truth, and this must be done with a contrite heart. For the heart that is unwilling to be broken on the Rock, just will not be broken. It must not be me calling sin sin, it will have to be us opening up our Bibles and search, search, comparing and searching and praying for the Holy Spirit to convict your heart. What is conviction? It is being planted in the foundation of Christ and that Rock cannot be moved.
This I do believe, that God provided people food in the wilderness and while they were without understanding of His commands, He provided their request. But afterward when they learned what God wanted them to do and how to live; so when they asked for flesh with education our Lord called it lust. Whether or not you choose to believe what happened in the recorded Holy Scriptures, you will have to pray, study and ask for the Holy Spirit.
Please understand I am not seeking for you to change your minds, but I was asked to share and I did.
The purpose of this study was share, and for each of you to pray, study and ask for the Holy Spirit.
With Christian Love, Your Sister in Christ Jesus, Cheri
"Why is it so hard to lead a self-denying, humble life? Because professed Christians are not dead to the world. It is easy living after we are dead." 1T 131.2
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Re: A Bible Study on Vegetarianism
[Re: Cheri Fritz]
#86566
03/18/07 12:16 AM
03/18/07 12:16 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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No one here is denying what Ellen White wrote Cheri. Who is denying it. How do you respond to others the quotes I found at the white estate website where Ellen White ate meat? Its obvious its not healthy for you to be eating it today, so I want to know your thoughts on this, or are you not able or willing to answer questions asked, after all that does happen in a Bible study. It may serve to keep your sword sharp. WIll
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Re: A Bible Study on Vegetarianism
[Re: Will]
#86567
03/18/07 01:20 AM
03/18/07 01:20 AM
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The unfolding of truth is progressive, therefore, it may be important to look at the timeline in relation to those quotes.
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Re: A Bible Study on Vegetarianism
[Re: Daryl]
#86568
03/18/07 03:19 AM
03/18/07 03:19 AM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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She was 46 years old when she ate duck and deer, 52 when she ate oysters which is an unclean thing, and that is around 3,500 years old since God said that. Its a fact. Leviticus 11:9-12
9These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
An oyster falls into that category. Anyways you all know very well exactly what I am saying. Now what do you do with the above. Where do you go from there. How do you respond to someone who shows you this truth, which it is. God Bless, Will
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Re: A Bible Study on Vegetarianism
[Re: Cheri Fritz]
#86569
03/18/07 04:12 AM
03/18/07 04:12 AM
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Cheri
Thanks for sharing your scripture study on vegetarianism.
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Re: A Bible Study on Vegetarianism
[Re: Will]
#86570
03/18/07 04:27 AM
03/18/07 04:27 AM
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Also keep in mind that God used Daniel extensively, and this man ate and drank wine. Or was it not flesh food he ate? Again God is not a God of confusion. The real health message is to be healthy, so we can go and tell others about Christ's soon return, not "Eat only broccoli so you can go to heaven". We cannot do that if we are always getting sick, which by the way getting sick is not a sin, its a result of sin in the world. Something to think about. WIll Will, I don't recall reading any where that Daniel ate flesh or drank wine. Could you give a text for your statement? Daniel 1:8 (King James Version)
8But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king's meat, nor with the wine which he drank: therefore he requested of the prince of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself.
Daniel 1:12 (King James Version)
12Prove thy servants, I beseech thee, ten days; and let them give us pulse to eat, and water to drink.
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Re: A Bible Study on Vegetarianism
[Re: Cheri Fritz]
#86571
03/18/07 04:51 AM
03/18/07 04:51 AM
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Cheri, here are a few words form Minsitry of Healing that I think go along with your study. The diet appointed man in the beginning did not include animal food. Not till after the Flood, when every green thing on the earth had been destroyed, did man receive permission to eat flesh. {MH 311.1}
In choosing man's food in Eden, the Lord showed what was the best diet; in the choice made for Israel He taught the same lesson. He brought the Israelites out of Egypt and undertook their training, that they might be a people for His own possession. Through them He desired to bless and teach the world. He provided them with the food best adapted for this purpose, not flesh, but manna, "the bread of heaven." It was only because of their discontent and their murmuring for the fleshpots of Egypt that animal food was granted them, and this only for a short time. Its use brought disease and death to thousands. Yet the restriction to a nonflesh diet was never heartily accepted. It continued to be the cause of discontent and murmuring, open or secret, and it was not made permanent. {MH 311.2}
Upon their settlement in Canaan, the Israelites were permitted the use of animal food, but under careful restriction which tended to lessen the evil results. The use of swine's flesh was prohibited, as also of other animals and of birds and fish whose flesh was pronounced unclean. Of the meats permitted, the eating of the fat and the blood was strictly forbidden. {MH 311.3}
Only such animals could be used for food as were in good condition. No creature that was torn, that had died of itself, or from which the blood had not been carefully drained, could be used as food. {MH 312.1}
By departing from the plan divinely appointed for their diet, the Israelites suffered great loss. They desired a flesh diet, and they reaped its results. They did not reach God's ideal of character or fulfill His purpose. The Lord "gave them their request; but sent leanness into their soul." Psalm 106:15. They valued the earthly above the spiritual, and the sacred pre-eminence which was His purpose for them they did not attain. {MH 312.2}
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