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Re: A Bible Study on Vegetarianism [Re: Daryl] #86664
03/20/07 08:26 AM
03/20/07 08:26 AM
Tammy Roesch  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 562
North East OHIO
 Originally Posted By: Daryl Fawcett
The SDA Bible Commentary is quiet on the flesh and wine aspect of Daniel 10:3. The verse tells me that Daniel did in fact eat flesh food and drink wine prior to and after this period of mourning. The drinking of wine, however, could very well have been unfermented grape juice.


Yes, I think that is possible, Daryl, the only thing is, I thought if the wine was symbolic, then perhaps the meat was too, but in the context, the meat can't be symbolic, so, I then wasn't sure if the wine was.


Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}

Re: A Bible Study on Vegetarianism [Re: Will] #86665
03/20/07 08:39 AM
03/20/07 08:39 AM
Tammy Roesch  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 562
North East OHIO
 Originally Posted By: Will
Thanks Tammy for sharing your thoughts on this.
I don't believe God changes. He listed very clearly thousands of years ago what is clean and unclean meat, there are many poor people (SDA's and other Christians as well) who cannot afford the luxury of spending a couple of hundred dollars on changing their diet to be vegetarian, cause it's not cheap I counted as we made changes.
My point was being thaty if eating meat is a sin, and we know that Daniel ate meat, and Ellen White ate meat regardless of circumstances or anything, then it must be Ok to sin. That's where that line of thought ends.
I know it's not Ok to sin, after all that's why Jesus came, it was to take away our sins.
I believe that one should be temperate in all things, meaning one has to learn and be educated, and when they are willing to stop eating meat then fine. Until then, let them be convinced in their own mind. Our lives are a testimony to that, that's what people look at.

I am glad that you believe that Daniel ate meat and drank wine. I get exhausted over the same old theme over and over again. It really hinders me from participating anywhere in any forum, it gets old, but when someone presents a thought that I know is not Biblical, then I will present my thoughts.

Yeah, I believe John the Baptist was a vegetarian. Locust beans, I mean its even found in several products today, I think its called Locust Bean gum or something.
We must dress simple, but use your head about that. I found a site that was big on dress reformation, and when I looked at what they had I thought I was looking at a clip from the movie The Scarlett Letter, big huge dresses,bonnets, hear ye hear ye..

I am not comfortable with what's going on in our churches at least where I live, which was the complete opposite from when I was away a few weeks ago.
Last Sabbath I thought I was at a townhall meeting at work, all I could remember the pastor talking about was some life changing experience, so my mind went into autopilot and I thought about different things.. It was weird in the sense, that not enough scripture was given, not enough explanation and uplifting of Jesus. I'm old school when it comes to that, a church my dad helped start (actively helped start mind you, not a benchwarmer) has over 300 people actively attending church each and every Sabbath. This was over 20 years ago where it started very small and has grown, there are 2 services that occur at the same time one in english and one inspanish . There were people attending who's character and demeanor is warm, passionate, funny (humorous), willing to learn, and serving The Lord.
People came up to me and we talked, and I even got a free book!! And I love books, I can't get enough out of books hehehe \:\)
The book is called Omega II I highly recommend it to anyone. I am almost finished, and no it has nothing to do with the fringe groups constant badgering that it must be the trinity (blind people)..Its way deeper and very very interesting.
God Bless,
Will


 Quote:
My point was being thaty if eating meat is a sin, and we know that Daniel ate meat, and Ellen White ate meat regardless of circumstances or anything, then it must be Ok to sin. That's where that line of thought ends.
I know it's not Ok to sin, after all that's why Jesus came, it was to take away our sins.


Of course it is not OK to sin, Will. But, I think you are misunderstanding a real important point here. At different times, what was sin at one point, is not always sin at another. For instance: When God created man, it would have been sin, for Adam to kill an animal and eat it. But after the flood, God permitted the clean animals to be a part of the diet for man. So, what was once sin, that of eating meat, was no longer sin. And TODAY, it has changed again. TODAY, for an Adventist in the US (I realize there are poor people in other countries who cannot afford and who do not have the light we have) to continue to eat meat in the light of all the knowledge we have, it constitutes sin.

True, God never changes...but sometimes His rules do. But, if He changes His rules, He let's us know...he gives us fair warning...and He ONLY changes them for our own good! \:\)


Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}

Re: A Bible Study on Vegetarianism [Re: Will] #86666
03/20/07 08:44 AM
03/20/07 08:44 AM
Tammy Roesch  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 562
North East OHIO
Will, I know it can be expensive to eat vegetarian, but, there are definently ways of making it less expensive than a meat diet, too.

For instance, purchase a SoyToy and make your own soymilk...for less than .50/quart. I make it for our family 3 times a week. It is really good tasting, super healthy and cheap.

Join a CO-OP and purchase at wholesale or nearly wholesale...or join a buying club. I know you are in BC...and I know that Fountainview Academy receives items from Country Life Natural Foods in MI. Hook up with them, find out when the truck is coming, put your order in and you can save a ton of money.


Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}

Re: A Bible Study on Vegetarianism [Re: vastergotland] #86667
03/20/07 09:01 AM
03/20/07 09:01 AM
Cheri Fritz  Offline OP
Full Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 278
Gloversville, NY, USA
Good morning,

Will, I wish to thank you for your patience. Truly I needed to read a bit more, which I read a great deal more. And prayed a lot more.

This morning I will refer you to Mrs. White.
 Quote:
An Intelligent Decision.--As Daniel and his fellows were brought to the test, they placed themselves fully on the side of righteousness and truth. They did not move capriciously, but intelligently. They decided that as flesh-meat had not composed their diet in the past, it should not come into their diet in the future, and as wine had been prohibited to all who should engage in the service of God, they determined that they would not partake of it. The fate of the sons of Aaron had been presented before them, and they knew that the use of wine would confuse their senses, that the indulgence of appetite would be-cloud their powers of discernment. These particulars were placed on record in the history of the children of Israel as a warning to every youth to avoid all customs and practises and indulgences that would in any way dishonor God.
Daniel and his companions knew not what would be the result of their decision; they knew not but that it would cost them their lives; but they determined to keep the straight path of strict temperance even when in the courts of licentious Babylon.The SDA Bible Commentary, p, 1166.
 Quote:
Daniel and his three companions did not take the position that because their food and drink were of the king's appointment, it was their duty to partake of it. They prayed over the matter, and studied the Scriptures. Their education had been of such a character that they felt even in their captivity that God was their dependence; and after carefully reasoning from cause to effect, "Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king's meat, nor with the wine which he drank: therefore he requested of the prince of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself."
This request they did not prefer in a defiant spirit, but as if soliciting a great favor. The appearance of Daniel and his companions was like what every youth's should be. They were courteous, kind, respectful, possessing the grace of meekness and modesty. And the good behavior of these youth obtained favor for them. Of Daniel we read, "God had brought Daniel into favor and tender love with the prince of the eunuchs." And now as Daniel and his fellows were brought to the test, they placed themselves fully on the side of righteousness and truth. They did not move capriciously, but intelligently. They decided that as flesh-meat had not composed their diet in the past, it should not come into their diet in the future, and as wine had been prohibited to all who should engage in the service of God, they determined that they would not partake of it. The fate of the sons of Aaron had been presented before them, and they knew that the use of wine would confuse their senses, that the indulgence of appetite would becloud their powers of discernment. These particulars were placed on record in the history of the children of Israel as a warning to every youth to avoid all customs and practises and indulgences that would in any way dishonor God.
Daniel and his companions knew not what would be the result of their decision; they knew not but that it would cost them their lives; but they determined to keep the straight path of strict temperance even when in the courts of licentious Babylon. They rested their case in the hands of God, and the Lord co-operated with them. He took charge of these youth because they prayed to him, and sought his guidance in regard to the course they should pursue. The Youth Instructor, August 18, 1898, par. 8,9 10.
  1. They decided that as flesh-meat had not composed their diet in the past,
  2. it should not come into their diet in the future
  3. and as wine had been prohibited to all who should engage in the service of God
  4. they determined that they would not partake of it.
In addition, we all have steps to take with regards to how we will deal with the information that the Holy Spirit teaches. For we know that Mrs. White did not uphold all the standards when she was chosen, but we see steadily that her steps progressed in the manner that God taught her.

Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri


"Why is it so hard to lead a self-denying, humble life? Because professed Christians are not dead to the world. It is easy living after we are dead." 1T 131.2
Re: A Bible Study on Vegetarianism [Re: Cheri Fritz] #86668
03/20/07 09:10 AM
03/20/07 09:10 AM
Cheri Fritz  Offline OP
Full Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 278
Gloversville, NY, USA
Greetings Tammy,

Very true that vegetarian products can be inexpensive too. I have transferred over to rice milk, which I can make my own if necessary, and have begun using sunflower seeds more often.

Your Sister,
Cheri


"Why is it so hard to lead a self-denying, humble life? Because professed Christians are not dead to the world. It is easy living after we are dead." 1T 131.2
Re: A Bible Study on Vegetarianism [Re: Cheri Fritz] #86669
03/20/07 09:20 AM
03/20/07 09:20 AM
Tammy Roesch  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 562
North East OHIO
 Originally Posted By: Cheri Fritz
Good morning,

Will, I wish to thank you for your patience. Truly I needed to read a bit more, which I read a great deal more. And prayed a lot more.

This morning I will refer you to Mrs. White.
 Quote:
An Intelligent Decision.--As Daniel and his fellows were brought to the test, they placed themselves fully on the side of righteousness and truth. They did not move capriciously, but intelligently. They decided that as flesh-meat had not composed their diet in the past, it should not come into their diet in the future, and as wine had been prohibited to all who should engage in the service of God, they determined that they would not partake of it. The fate of the sons of Aaron had been presented before them, and they knew that the use of wine would confuse their senses, that the indulgence of appetite would be-cloud their powers of discernment. These particulars were placed on record in the history of the children of Israel as a warning to every youth to avoid all customs and practises and indulgences that would in any way dishonor God.
Daniel and his companions knew not what would be the result of their decision; they knew not but that it would cost them their lives; but they determined to keep the straight path of strict temperance even when in the courts of licentious Babylon.The SDA Bible Commentary, p, 1166.
 Quote:
Daniel and his three companions did not take the position that because their food and drink were of the king's appointment, it was their duty to partake of it. They prayed over the matter, and studied the Scriptures. Their education had been of such a character that they felt even in their captivity that God was their dependence; and after carefully reasoning from cause to effect, "Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king's meat, nor with the wine which he drank: therefore he requested of the prince of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself."
This request they did not prefer in a defiant spirit, but as if soliciting a great favor. The appearance of Daniel and his companions was like what every youth's should be. They were courteous, kind, respectful, possessing the grace of meekness and modesty. And the good behavior of these youth obtained favor for them. Of Daniel we read, "God had brought Daniel into favor and tender love with the prince of the eunuchs." And now as Daniel and his fellows were brought to the test, they placed themselves fully on the side of righteousness and truth. They did not move capriciously, but intelligently. They decided that as flesh-meat had not composed their diet in the past, it should not come into their diet in the future, and as wine had been prohibited to all who should engage in the service of God, they determined that they would not partake of it. The fate of the sons of Aaron had been presented before them, and they knew that the use of wine would confuse their senses, that the indulgence of appetite would becloud their powers of discernment. These particulars were placed on record in the history of the children of Israel as a warning to every youth to avoid all customs and practises and indulgences that would in any way dishonor God.
Daniel and his companions knew not what would be the result of their decision; they knew not but that it would cost them their lives; but they determined to keep the straight path of strict temperance even when in the courts of licentious Babylon. They rested their case in the hands of God, and the Lord co-operated with them. He took charge of these youth because they prayed to him, and sought his guidance in regard to the course they should pursue. The Youth Instructor, August 18, 1898, par. 8,9 10.
  1. They decided that as flesh-meat had not composed their diet in the past,
  2. it should not come into their diet in the future
  3. and as wine had been prohibited to all who should engage in the service of God
  4. they determined that they would not partake of it.
In addition, we all have steps to take with regards to how we will deal with the information that the Holy Spirit teaches. For we know that Mrs. White did not uphold all the standards when she was chosen, but we see steadily that her steps progressed in the manner that God taught her.

Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri


Cheri, thank you so much for finding these quotes...they are so clear!

 Quote:
They decided that as flesh meat had not composed their diet in the past, neither should it come into their diet in the future. And as the use of wine had been prohibited to all those who should engage in the service of God, they determined that they would not partake of it. . . . {HP 261.3}


Clearly, when Daniel says he refrained from meat & wine in Daniel 10, it cannot mean that Daniel ate meat or drank alcohol at other times, in the light of this quote.

I'm so thankful for the Spirit of Prophecy!


Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}

Re: A Bible Study on Vegetarianism [Re: Tammy Roesch] #86670
03/20/07 09:27 AM
03/20/07 09:27 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
 Originally Posted By: Tammy Roesch
Clearly, when Daniel says he refrained from meat & wine in Daniel 10, it cannot mean that Daniel ate meat or drank alcohol at other times, in the light of this quote.

I'm so thankful for the Spirit of Prophecy!
If it doesnt mean what it says, what then does it mean? And if it does mean what it says, and Ellens words refer to all of Daniels life and not just that event, would we then have a case of contradiction between the two?

Thomas


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: A Bible Study on Vegetarianism [Re: vastergotland] #86671
03/20/07 09:44 AM
03/20/07 09:44 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
The word translated "meat" in Dan 10:3 means the following in the dictionary:

skin, meat (including sacrificial meat), flesh, body, humankind, animals.

Considering that he put it in his mouth and bread and wine are in the context, it seems reasonable to translate it meat, dont you think?


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: A Bible Study on Vegetarianism [Re: vastergotland] #86672
03/20/07 11:36 AM
03/20/07 11:36 AM
Cheri Fritz  Offline OP
Full Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 278
Gloversville, NY, USA
Greetings Thomas,

In my life, I have had to accept some truths without having all the knowledge and understanding. Truly it was a walk in faith for me on certain issues at times. But through prayer and supplication the Holy Spirit always seems to answer in His time, not mine.

As I sit here, I recall a time in which I asked the Lord to help me with a question. And then the Lord had not provided me with an answer for nearly a year. Although I had all the tools and verses before me, the understanding from the Holy Spirit was not provided until further education was given to me. Strangely I recall how I had read a certain verse many times, and I had not given it much thought. But then when I began to study once again, it was like my eyes were seeing for the first time.

But today I will share with you what I have considered and studied and prayed on:

Daniel
1:18-21 "Now at the end of the days that the king had said he should bring them in, then the prince of the eunuchs brought them in before Nebuchadnezzar. And the king communed with them; and among them all was found none like Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah: therefore stood they before the king. And in all matters of wisdom and understanding, that the king inquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and astrologers that were in all his realm. And Daniel continued even unto the first year of king Cyrus."

Please understand I am not asking you to hold onto my faith, for you need God giving your own oil for your soul. But I have faith that you are dearly seeking. And so that you are not confused, I am not saying that you will have to believe as I have. And I am not saying that your answer from God will be the same as mine, but I encourage you to continue in prayer and supplication. God will answer you, and that is what you need above all, His answer within you.

P.U.S.H. = Pray Until Something Happens!

Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri


"Why is it so hard to lead a self-denying, humble life? Because professed Christians are not dead to the world. It is easy living after we are dead." 1T 131.2
Re: A Bible Study on Vegetarianism [Re: Cheri Fritz] #86673
03/20/07 11:40 AM
03/20/07 11:40 AM
Cheri Fritz  Offline OP
Full Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 278
Gloversville, NY, USA
Greetings Tammy,
 Quote:
Cheri, thank you so much for finding these quotes...they are so clear!
You are most thoughtful, and most welcomed.

Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri


"Why is it so hard to lead a self-denying, humble life? Because professed Christians are not dead to the world. It is easy living after we are dead." 1T 131.2
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