I was comparing it to what Samson did. He killed 300 foxes to gratify his lust for revenge. How many thousands of animals are killed to gratify our perverted appetites?

As for the sacrificial system, it was far different. A little thought on how the Passover lamb was treated should show that. Then consider the sinner's sacrifice of one of his perfect lambs. Or a bullock if he was a leader.

This is not accurate. Most of the practises today stem from the interference and dictates of animal rights grioup such as PETA.
The care of the livestock is uppermost in the mind of any farmer.
Diary, stressed animals do not deliver the quanity of milk needed when stressed. To counteract the stress modern demands have placed on the agribusness, other steps are needed.
If agribusiness does not care for the livestock, they don't earn a living and is pointless to have them.

What you see are the results of laws passed without common sense.
Diary animals forced to be on concrete, very unatural for cattle.
It is not the farmer who prizes veal, that is the consumer. If the farmer is to stay in business he has to bend to the dictates of those who consume his product.

Peta and some humane societies raised a ruckus around our area for hte inhumane practise of shearing sheep. Nonsense but doesn't stop others from picking up the battle cry without thinking it thru.
Shearing sheep is about the most humane thing you can do for the sheep, but didn't stop absolutely foolish people from condmening those who did.

Those that consider the benefits from agribusiness down by uncaring individuals need to stop supporting the farmer and keeping him in business.
The obvious is meat consumption, but the list of items most of us use is extensive.
Leather shoes,luggage,car seats,etc need to be avoided. This is only the tip of the iceberg of products you and others including myself use.

The agribusiness man stops using what you consider inhumane,uncaring practises as soon as the consumer makes it possible.
That consumer means all of those that consume products stemming from farming.

Many practises are not pleasent but are necessary to stay in business and compete effectively

PETA doesn't like us bee keepers either. They place all animals above humans, even insects.

There are many things we do that we don't like to do but in order to stay in business, and so people can have their blueberries, apples, pickles etc, we have to do things we'd rather not. Such is life.

Redfog

PETA is almost a religion and do place animals at least on the level of importance as humans.

Same is true of the farmer,dairy or otherwise. They cannot compete with the method of years ago. Not only would prices be out of site, there would be those not able to afford the basics.
It is easy to blame the most visible, but that is not where most of the blame for demand belongs.

Everyone wants fairly cheap products with out a thought as to how they get them.

Bonnie

Cheap products? You bet. That is why honey prices are about the same as they were 20 years ago. Everyone wants cheap honey. Guess where most of it comes from? The same place as where tainted pet food and tooth paste comes from. And yes in the past there has been tainted honey from China as well.

Redfog

It is far to easy for many to blast the inhumane farmer or agri business person.
They can not compete unless they can produce more with less. And even then it is barely keeping their head above water.

When the consumer stops consumer stops consuming at such a rapid rate or is willing to pay full and fair value, then they might see a change. Until then it will be done as economical as possible.

Even after all that those that blame the farmer needs to take a long look at some of nonsensical laws and who put them into place.

Well hello Bonnie, it is nice to see you take a “breather” from the forums revolving around the 3abn saga, where you have expressed some of your opinions.

To quote myself:


Perhaps you might rather I rephrased what I said. Perhaps choosing the more fitting terms "Factory Farming", or "Industrial Farming" rather then “agribusiness”? Though IMO, agribusiness is just as it says, business, where making money for the stock holders is the bottom line.

It seems that six thousand years of sin has left us humans a bit calloused, in light of what Ellen tells us of our first parents reaction to the first signs of death (the wages of sin).

"As they witnessed in drooping flower and falling leaf the first signs of decay, Adam and his companion mourned more deeply than men now mourn over their dead. The death of the frail, delicate flowers was indeed a cause of sorrow; but when the goodly trees cast off their leaves, the scene brought vividly to mind the stern fact that death is the portion of every living thing." {PP 62.1}

Wow, You know I have difficulty reading this text aloud with out my voice getting a bit choked. But can you imagine that? To mourn the drooping flower and falling leaf more deeply than we now mourn over our dead. I might get upset if my dogs dig up a plant or break a branch, but I don't don't recall ever even crying over it.

Ellen gave this warning:

"The moral evils of a flesh diet are not less marked than are the physical ills. Flesh food is injurious to health, and whatever affects the body has a corresponding effect on the mind and the soul. Think of the cruelty to animals that meat eating involves, and its effect on those who inflict and those who behold it. How it destroys the tenderness with which we should regard these creatures of God!" {MH 315.2}

You know John Robbins tells a story that perhaps kind of illustrates what Ellen is talking about. I believe it is called The Pig Farmer. IMO it is well worth reading. What a cruel thing that child had to endure. Read the whole story, it has a surprising ending.

You are exactly right in your assessment of agribusiness-factory farming,idustrial farming. Add to that the small farmer that needs to incorporate some of the practises used by the above. Otherwise the family farmer is done and may as well quit.
Even without having livestock as part of the equation the crop farmer has a huge lifetime investment just in equipment. Many pieces of machinery cost more than the middle class home. No one wants to pay an increase in the cost of the food they now purchase. Your assessment that they care little for their animals is not accurate. If they do not care and do not take appropriate measures to see to their health, each one represents a loss of that bottom line,you can't have it both ways

But like most things in this life the consumer/culprit in dictating what they want have little regard for the chain reaction set in motion. They only know it is the fault of that greedy, calloused farmer.
Couple that with org. like Peta and you have the farmer between the rock and the hard place.
We have this interesting thing going on in the midwest, I am sure all over but have not bothered to check.

All the yammering about fossil fuel and following all over themselves to embrace ethanol. Along with it's lower price than gas, it also has increased the cost of any item/product that uses corn. Not only that but efficient milage is reduced. The farmer that needs to have corn for his livestock needs to pay more for his corn. He pays more for the seed corn to begin with. Then take a tour thru your grocery store. Milk in our region keeps climbing and has risen over a dollar per gallon recently.
In grocery shopping not to long ago, I was so privileged to be behind two women that were incensed at that greedy farmer that just wants more and more.


Of course the human race has become calloused. If you had never seen death and sin had not entered we wouldn't be having this conversation.
You as well as everyone else benefits from the very practises that bother you so.
The lanolin that more than likely can be found in something in your home comes from someone like me shipping their sheep to market. You may not eat meat, but you can and do benefit from the actions that bother you so.

Any leather that you have in your home or wardrobe came from the calloused agri-business man/woman.

Obviously any making their living in agri-business have to have an eye on the bottom line/profit.Whether it be a large corp. or the small farmer, if he doesn't pay close attention to the bottom line he soon won't have a business to worry about.

As for this statment of yours.....
(But can you imagine that? To mourn the drooping flower and falling leaf more deeply than we now mourn over our dead. I might get upset if my dogs dig up a plant or break a branch, but I don't don't recall ever even crying over it.


I am not sure that I know how you are applying this. Mourning our dead in relation to a discussion on livestock sounds a lot like PETA, which has more than once stated a "cow is a rat is a dog is a child".
Sorry for me I will mourn the death of a loved one far quicker than I will an animal.
No I do not cry over a dead plant when there are very real issues and concerns to cry over.

Most here probably don't eat meat, but are is guilty in enjoying the by- product of the moral evil of a fleah diet.
Think of the cruelty of all those that use the by-products. Sheep die before anyone can benefit from their lanolin. Principally cows die before they become a leather belt, leather shoes,leather car seats and many, many other items.

It may be worthwhile to consider not condemning the agri-business man if you take part in what he offers in such a calloused way

Reading that story confirms most of what I think of animal rights groups. If it requires really stretching the truth to gain a convert there is no hesitation about doing so.

The farmer is painted as a overbearing,overweight,rigid,cruel and calloused husband and father because of his pig operation. What a pack of nonesense. And lo and behold he becomes this kind,loving happy man.
Overweight,overbearing,rigid,cruel and calloused also describes many city people, among them SDA's.

I am not sure what the practises are for hog farming in Iowa, but what is described would not be recognizable to most hog farmers in MN.
Cages are not stacked with urine and feces falling thru to the cage below. They are not stacked here. But animal rights groups are not above stretching and twistng the truth like silly putty till it looks the way they want it to look.



Disease is guarded against as far as possible and what is discibed in that story is a situation that will lead to disease and death. A vet can't even walk into another hog operation after leaving one without covering his boots/shoes and washing his hands with disinfectant. No one walked into my barn if I knew they had just left another farm operation.

Crates are typically used for sows. In part to keep them from laying on their babies. This is common with unprotected baby pigs. No farmer is going to allow feces and urine to be a daily condition for baby pigs.


Raising hogs does not cause you to be overweight, check the SDA population and what do you see?
Nor does raising hogs in confinement make you calloused and cruel, anymore than being SDA. Have you ever encountered a rigid,cruel SDA? I have and there were no hogs involved.

crater,


There is enough cruelty to go around and a number of things that should change, but this man's gross exaggerations don't help.

This article by this man starts with a unspoken lie to gain acess and goes down from there.
Had this actually occurred he had a moral obligation to take steps to have this stopped.

What he described is absolutely against the law in any state I have ever heard of. Can someone abuse their animals to this extent,ABSOLUTELY.
But to have an eye witness account by someone that did nothing about this is not something I would brag about in a book or story. It is illegal and you can have them removed from your premises for making them live in feces and urine from other animals and no way to get away from it.

(quote)
The conditions were brutal. The pigs were confined in cages that were barely larger than their own bodies, with the cages stacked on top of each other in tiers, three high. The sides and the bottoms of the cages were steel slats, so that excrement from the animals in the upper and middle tiers dropped through the slats on to the animals below. (/quote)

Not legal, against animal humane laws and should have been reported by this animal lover.
In addition he forgot how to explain the sows nursed their young stacked that way. The babies have free acess to the sow. How would they in this setup.

(quote)
The aforementioned owner of this nightmare weighed, I am sure, at least 240 pounds, but what was even more impressive about his appearance was that he seemed to be made out of concrete. His movements had all the fluidity and grace of a brick wall. (/quote)


Why the need to mock or explain his appearance? Just to add a little that he was an unfeeling overweight piece of concrete.

(quote)
What made him even less appealing was that his language seemed to consist mainly of grunts, many of which sounded alike to me, and none of which were particularly pleasant to hear. Seeing how rigid he was and sensing the overall quality of his presence, I—rather brilliantly, I thought—concluded that his difficulties had not arisen merely because he hadn’t had time, that particular morning, to finish his entire daily yoga routine. (/quote)


Mainly grunts, sounds like the animals he raises doesn't it.
But watch how this uncouth. unfeeling illiterate piece of concrete mellows and becomes "human" in the eyes of this less than honest author

(quote)But I wasn’t about to divulge my opinions of him or his operation, for I was undercover, visiting slaughterhouses and feedlots to learn what I could about modern meat production......I told the farmer matter of factly that I was a researcher writing about animal agriculture, and asked if he’d mind speaking with me for a few minutes so that I might have the benefit of his knowledge. In response, he grunted a few words that I could not decipher, but that I gathered meant I could ask him questions and he would show me around. (/quote)


Pig farmer still grunting. Rarely if ever will a facility like this be open to random visitors. If in top conditions the livestock raiser does not want and is not big on giving acess.



e.



(quote)
Because it was becoming increasingly difficult to hide my distress, it crossed my mind that I should tell him what I thought of the conditions in which he kept his pigs, but then I thought better of it. This was a man, it was obvious, with whom there was no point in arguing. (/quote)

He didn't need to argue, one call to the local humane society would have taken care of it. Apparantly his concern was not that great


.

(quote)The pig farmer grimaced when his wife spoke, but he dutifully turned to me and announced, “The wife would like you to stay for dinner.” He always called her “the wife,” by the way, which led me to deduce that he was not, apparently, on the leading edge of feminist thought in the country today. (/quote)

And the above has what to do with the story






(quote) finger, and snarled in a voice that I must say truly frightened me, “Sometimes I wish you animal rights people would just drop dead.” (/quote)


Another absolute piece of drival. If this farmer realized he was an animal rights activist and as reported as uncouth and belligerant he would have run him off, not asking him to dinner



.
(quote)
“Why would they say a thing like that?” I answered, knowing full well, of course, why they would, but thinking mostly about my own survival. His reply, to my surprise, while angry, was actually quite articulate. He told me precisely what animal rights groups were saying about operations like his, and exactly why they were opposed to his way of doing things. Then, without pausing, he launched into a tirade about how he didn’t like being called cruel, and they didn’t know anything about the business he was in, and why couldn’t they mind their own business. (/quote)


Rather deftly leaves the impression this uncouth pig farmer because of what he did for a living was dangerous to him
.
.





(quote)
“My father gave me a choice.”

“What was that?”

“He told me, ‘You either slaughter that animal or you’re no longer my son.’”

Some choice, I think, feeling the weight of how fathers have so often trained their sons not to care, to be what they call brave and strong, but what so often turns out to be callous and closed-hearted. (/quote)


Highly doubtful. A young boy or even a teen would have a dickens of a time trying to kill and butcher a hog. They are quite large as an adult animal and very strong. My husband was raised on a farm and they had hogs. Butchered their own and it took two full grown men to do so.
In addition every child raised on the farm has eaten an animal they have made into a pet, either that or seen it shipped.
Every child in 4-H that raises beef, whethered animals(neutered male) does so with the knowledge at that end of that hopefully at the state fair with first place, the animal goes for meat consumption


Bonnie