How are you switching gears? Why not fix the original problem before opening a new front? My point didn't have to do with the conclusions you were making, but with the logic.

One quick observation is that you seem to be conceptualizing sin only in terms of behavior. Sin goes deeper than that. For example, "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

Another example of how conceptualizing sin in this way may be missing important points regards how Satan was successful in winning converts. It was by misrepresenting God's character. That's really the fundamental issue. Sins, as behaviors, stem from that. This is an issue which 1 Cor. 10:13 is not dealing with (although Paul deals with it in Romans).

A: "Does that mean God cannot temper the temptations that come to people if they aren't more careful?" No.

MM: I agree. God tempers, makes sure, that temptations do not exceed a certain level. And, He does this even for people who reject His counsel and guidance.

asg: Do you have a verse that says God does that for those who rebel against Him? But the SOP tells us that to expect God's promises without fulfilling the conditions is presumption.

---

MM: Yes. 1 Cor 10:13 refers to all the temptations common to mankind. Self-centeredness is the root of all temptations.

asg: Does it cover the ability to avoid being born selfish? Is it a sin to be selfish?

---

MM: Why can't sinning be excused?

asg: Because it is incongruent with God's nature. Sin is destroyed in God's presence.

---

A: First, God does not temper all temptations.

MM: Which temptations does God not temper (regulate)?

asg: The temptation is not the distinguishing feature; the tempted is. He does not regulate the temptations of those who are not abiding in Him. Only when we are in Him does He filter every incoming temptation. When we are outside of Him, we are open to the attacks of Satan.

---

A: Second, if one must see Christ's glory before he can reflect that glory, then it is also a prerequisite for overcoming temptations.

MM: "... it is also a prerequisite for overcoming temptations." Why?

asg: God's glory is His character. The image of His character in ours was marred and well-nigh obliterated through disobedience. Without that glory, we have neither the power nor the disposition to avoid temptation and sin. No glory -> no overcoming temptations.

It's an interesting question how to look at this. We are told that God will not permit us to be tempted above that which we are able. I agree that this applies primarily to those who are abiding in him, to use that expression, but God also protects those who are not abiding in Him, to differing degrees. It's not until a person resists the Spirit of God to where there is simply nothing more that God can do for them that they are given up completely. Otherwise Satan would make short work of all the lost, and they would never have the opportunity to be saved.

I'm not sure what filtering every incoming temptation means. I think what Paul is saying is that God limits the access that Satan and his host have to us. Do you see Paul as saying something different than this?

TE: One quick observation is that you seem to be conceptualizing sin only in terms of behavior. Sin goes deeper than that. For example, "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

MM: Sinning involves what we think, speak, and do. Anything we think, say, or do which is not the result of "faith that works by love" is sinning. That's as deep as it goes, right?

TE: This is an issue [sinful behavior related to a misrepresentation of God's character] which 1 Cor. 10:13 is not dealing with (although Paul deals with it in Romans).

MM: Why not? 1 Cor 10:13 promises that God will not allow us to be tempted beyond our ability to recognize and resist it, that God will empower us to bear it and escape it. Are you sure this promise excludes temptations related to a misrepresentation of God's character?

asg: Do you have a verse that says God does that for those who rebel against Him? But the SOP tells us that to expect God's promises without fulfilling the conditions is presumption.

MM: If we choose to trod in darkness unbidden, God does not abandon us. He does not leave it up to Satan to decide how to tempt and punish us. Even under these circumstances God regulates what Satan can and cannot do to us.


asg: Does it cover the ability to avoid being born selfish?

MM: No. Are we guilty of sining because we are born selfish? 1 Cor 10:13 includes all of the temptations common to mankind, including selfishness.

asg: "Why can't sinning be excused?" Because it is incongruent with God's nature. Sin is destroyed in God's presence.

MM: What does God's nature have to do with why we cannot excuse sinning?

asg: "Which temptations does God not temper (regulate)?" The temptation is not the distinguishing feature; the tempted is. He does not regulate the temptations of those who are not abiding in Him. Only when we are in Him does He filter every incoming temptation. When we are outside of Him, we are open to the attacks of Satan.

MM: You seem to be saying that Satan has full control over unbelievers, that God leaves it up to Satan to decide how to tempt and treat them?

asg: "... it is also a prerequisite for overcoming temptations. Why?" God's glory is His character. The image of His character in ours was marred and well-nigh obliterated through disobedience. Without that glory, we have neither the power nor the disposition to avoid temptation and sin. No glory -> no overcoming temptations.

MM: When do we receive the glory of God, His character, so that we can begin resisting temptations?

1. In light of the promise in 1 Corinthians 10:13 can you think of an excuse for sinning?

2. I realize there are reasons why we sin (knowingly or unknowingly), but do they count as excuses?

3. Is there an "excuse for sins which do not involve temptation"?

TE: One quick observation is that you seem to be conceptualizing sin only in terms of behavior. Sin goes deeper than that. For example, "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

MM: Sinning involves what we think, speak, and do. Anything we think, say, or do which is not the result of "faith that works by love" is sinning. That's as deep as it goes, right?

How we think is not generally considered as a behavior. It's true that what we think about can be influenced by temptation, but *how* we think need not be. That is, we can dishonor God by misrepresenting His character in our thoughts, without any temptation being involved.

TE: This is an issue [sinful behavior related to a misrepresentation of God's character] which 1 Cor. 10:13 is not dealing with (although Paul deals with it in Romans).

MM: Why not?

Romans 3 deals with it, as well as other parts of Romans. Paul had something different on his mind here is why not, as far as I can speculate.

1 Cor 10:13 promises that God will not allow us to be tempted beyond our ability to recognize and resist it, that God will empower us to bear it and escape it. Are you sure this promise excludes temptations related to a misrepresentation of God's character?

These need not involved temptations. They could, but that need not be the case. People believe wrong things about God in ignorance. In fact, I'm sure by a huge amount, the wrong thoughts we have about God are due to ignorance.

1. In light of the promise in 1 Corinthians 10:13 can you think of an excuse for sinning?

2. I realize there are reasons why we sin (knowingly or unknowingly), but do they count as excuses?

3. Is there an "excuse for sins which do not involve temptation"?

Your OP made the statement that there is no excuse for sinning because Paul said that any temptation could be overcome. It has been pointed out to you a number of times that your assertion is missing some elements to make for a complete argument. Rather than ask questions to patch up the missing elements, I'd prefer if you just made the argument.

The questions are poor questions because, for one thing, they assume that it is being argued that there is an excuse for sinning. As I've pointed out, it's not the content of what you said that's a problem, but the logic. Asking questions about the context won't help fix up the problem with the logic. To clarify, the problem with the logic here is not that it's wrong, but that it's incomplete.

God probably does everyone, regardless of spiritual condition, to a certain extent. But there are no guarantees of how much.

Sometimes, one is given over to Satan to torment, so that he can get some sense knocked into him (see 1Corinthians 5:5).

Your description of limiting Satan's access is what I have in mind. Job's case is one where God limited Satan's access. 1Jn 5:18 even limits the access to zero. That would mean that whatever touches the Christian is from Christ.

Check out this quote I ran across:

That means that for those who are outside of Christ, if God does not completely shield him from temptation, he will fall.

MM: If we choose to trod in darkness unbidden, God does not abandon us. He does not leave it up to Satan to decide how to tempt and punish us. Even under these circumstances God regulates what Satan can and cannot do to us.

asg: Actually, OHC 307.3 seems to say the opposite of your assertion.

---

asg: Does it cover the ability to avoid being born selfish?

MM: No. Are we guilty of sining because we are born selfish? 1 Cor 10:13 includes all of the temptations common to mankind, including selfishness.

asg: Whether we are guilty or not is irrelevant. The question is, Can you live in the presence of God if you are selfish? Answer: No. That's why we need to be recreated.

---

MM: What does God's nature have to do with why we cannot excuse sinning?

asg: Everything He made reflects His character. If we want to function within His creation, we must do it in congruence with His character. Sin is the anomaly.

---

MM: You seem to be saying that Satan has full control over unbelievers, that God leaves it up to Satan to decide how to tempt and treat them?

asg: OHC 307.3 says that he is left to himself.

Satan is not the lone tempter. Even if Satan ceased to exist right now, we will still tempt ourselves.

---

MM: When do we receive the glory of God, His character, so that we can begin resisting temptations?

asg: When we die to self and rise to walk in newness of life.