HOME CHAT ROOM #1 CHAT ROOM #2 Forum Topics Within The Last 7 Days REGISTER ENTER FORUMS BIBLE SCHOOL CONTACT US

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine Christian Family Fellowship Forums
(formerly Maritime SDA OnLine)
Consisting mainly of both members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church
Welcomes and invites other members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church to join us!

Click Here To Read Legal Notice & Disclaimer
Suggested a One Time Yearly $20 or Higher Donation Accepted Here to Help Cover the Yearly Expenses of Operating & Upgrading. We need at least $20 X 10 yearly donations.
Donations accepted: Here
ShoutChat Box
Newest Members
Andrew, Trainor, ekoorb1030, jibb555, MBloomfield
1325 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums118
Topics9,232
Posts196,213
Members1,325
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
Seventh-day Adventist Church In Canada Links
Seventh-day Adventist Church in Canada

Newfoundland & Labrador Mission

Maritime Conference

Quebec Conference

Ontario Conference

Manitoba-Saskatchewan Conference

Alberta Conference

British Columbia Conference

7 Top Posters(30 Days)
asygo 29
Rick H 26
kland 16
November
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
Member Spotlight
Rick H
Rick H
Florida, USA
Posts: 3,244
Joined: January 2008
Show All Member Profiles 
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Live Space Station Tracking
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
Last 7 Pictures From Photo Gallery Forums
He hath set an harvest for thee
Rivers Of Living Water
He Leads Us To Green Pastures
Remember What God Has Done
Remember The Sabbath
"...whiter than snow..."
A Beautiful Spring Day
Who's Online
9 registered members (TheophilusOne, dedication, daylily, Daryl, Karen Y, 4 invisible), 2,639 guests, and 5 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 5 of 28 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 27 28
Re: Are there any excuses for sinning? [Re: Tom] #92975
11/21/07 02:53 PM
11/21/07 02:53 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, you seem to believe God was willing to pardon Lucifer, without shedding the blood of Jesus, well after he was convinced he was wrong, well after he began openly rebelling.

I disagree. God would not, could not, pardon Lucifer after he began openly rebelling. He was beyond experiencing genuine repentance. He was guilty of committing the unpardonable sin when he chose to continue rebelling after he was convinced he was wrong. There was no way God could have pardoned him.

Re: Are there any excuses for sinning? [Re: Mountain Man] #92990
11/21/07 07:08 PM
11/21/07 07:08 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
Tom, you seem to believe God was willing to pardon Lucifer, without shedding the blood of Jesus, well after he was convinced he was wrong, well after he began openly rebelling.


You're making a statement without considering the evidence, as far as I can see (you didn't cite anything). I laid out for you what EGW wrote:

1.Lucifer was clearly shown to be wrong, and given a chance to confess his sin.
2.Instead of doing this, Lucifer sought to justify himself, and went so far as to misrepresent God, His actions and words.
3.Lucifer was not immediately banished from heaven after being shown to be wrong and given an opportunity to confess his sin, nor even after his misrepresentations against God.
4.Long was he retained in heaven, and offered pardon over and over again on the condition of repentance and submission.

None of these points are inferences or logical deductions. There are all straight from 4SP 319. Do you agree? If you don't, please tell me which point you disagree with and why.

What you stated above, about what I seem to believe, is inaccurate. What I have been saying is just what I laid out, in points 1 through 4. I said nothing about Lucifer being in open rebellion. He was still hiding his actions. EGW makes that point clear, and I've never said anything different.

 Quote:
God would not, could not, pardon Lucifer after he began openly rebelling. He was beyond experiencing genuine repentance. He was guilty of committing the unpardonable sin when he chose to continue rebelling after he was convinced he was wrong. There was no way God could have pardoned him.


I agree with this, assuming the "began openly rebelling" is referring to Lucifer's final decision, which is to say, at the point in time here, where he fully committed himself against God:

 Quote:
Though he had forsaken his position as covering cherub, yet if he had been willing to return to God, acknowledging the Creator's wisdom, and satisfied to fill the place appointed him in God's great plan, he would have been reinstated in his office. But pride forbade him to submit. He persistently defended his own course, maintained that he had no need of repentance, and fully committed himself, in the great controversy, against his Maker. (GC 496)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are there any excuses for sinning? [Re: Tom] #93003
11/22/07 03:40 AM
11/22/07 03:40 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Aren't the following quotes (taken from your recent posts) referring to the same time period in Lucifer's downward path?

"But he chose to carry his points at all hazards." 4P 319

"But pride forbade him to submit." GC 496

Re: Are there any excuses for sinning? [Re: Mountain Man] #93004
11/22/07 11:20 AM
11/22/07 11:20 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
 Quote:
MM: It doesn't mean he sinned in the sense He was guilty of sinning. It means his tactics, the way he was going around talking about God, were sinful.


Mike, isn’t this what a sin of ignorance is? What’s the difference between this and a sin of ignorance?

About sins of ignorance, Ellen White says,

“Some will plead that they lived up to the best light that they had, and did not know that they were sinners before God. Therefore they claim that they were guiltless, and have nothing to repent of. But the word of God was plain, and all who had a prayerful anxious desire to understand it might have known what was truth; and for this sin of ignorance God will demand an offering as truly as in the days of Moses,--even the offering of a broken and contrite heart.” {ST, July 22, 1880 par. 12}

And wasn’t the offering of a broken and contrite heart what Lucifer should have offered to God?

However, just because an offering for sin was required in a specific case in the levitical law, this doesn’t necessarily mean that that was a sin for which Christ must have died. For instance, when a woman had a baby, or when a leper was declared clean, an offering for sin was also required.

Now, one thing is sure. Ellen White says,

“He [Satan] and his followers repented, wept and implored to be taken back into the favor of God. But no, their sin, their hate, their envy and jealousy, had been so great that God could not blot it out. It must remain to receive its final punishment.” {1SG 18.1}

I understand that if their sin had not been so great (that is, if they hadn’t rebelled), it could have been blotted out.

Re: Are there any excuses for sinning? [Re: Rosangela] #93008
11/22/07 02:59 PM
11/22/07 02:59 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
R: Mike, isn’t this what a sin of ignorance is? What’s the difference between this and a sin of ignorance?

MM: In the beginning, when Lucifer began to think and feel things weren't quite right, I don't think he was sinning. Even now it's not a sin to questions God, to wonder about things that don't seem quite right. The difference is, Lucifer was perfect. He knew God perfectly.

In the beginning, it was a perfect being who began circulating among the angels questions and concerns about God. How a perfect being does this is very much different than how we do it now. There is no comparison. And, it was the first time anyone ever questioned the status quo. It was new and strange. But it was a perfect being who began to entertain such thoughts and feelings. It's not the same as when fallen beings do it. Such thoughts and feelings were new. And strange.

I think God tolerated Lucifer's quest to understand the new and strange thoughts and feelings that were consuming his time and attention because He felt it was healthy and right. True, God knew exactly where it was going and where it would end up, that is, in rebellion, but God didn't discourage Lucifer's initial quest. There was nothing wrong with him exploring questions and concerns. To ignore them, or pretend they didn't exist, would have been worse.

In order to explore his new and strange thoughts and feelings Lucifer played, as it were, the devil's advocate. In other words, he suggested outrageous things simply to consider all angles of the question. We do something similar today. However, the more he did this the more he believed it. When Jesus and certain angels began to plead with him to cease and desist, he dug in his heels and pressed the issues more intensely. During a general assembly, when God confirmed Jesus' high and lofty status, Lucifer felt the thrill of being in harmony with heaven. But he still wasn't finished with trying to understand his new and strange thoughts and feelings.

Nevertheless, he wasn't convinced he was wrong. He felt like was simply trying reason out the questions and concerns that were on his mind. Playing the "devil's advocate" seemed right and reasonable. He wasn't rebelling against God. By this time, though, his thoughts and feelings began to include pride and selfishness, which were also new and strange for a perfect being. He wrestled with them, with all of it, in agony and confusion. He was simply trying to understand his new and strange thoughts and feelings. Something didn't feel quite right, and he was determined to get to the bottom of it.

Now, were his tactics, during this stage, wrong? Were they sinful? Was playing the "devil's advocate", trying to explore all the angles related to his questions and concerns, sinful? Remember, Lucifer is perfect and sinless at this stage. We're talking about a sinless being playing the "devil's advocate", asking hard and hurtful questions about someone he loves dearly. Sister White testifies that Lucifer, at this stage, "He had not at this time fully cast off his allegiance to God."

GC 4495
Lucifer himself did not at first see whither he was drifting; he did not understand the real nature of his feelings. But as his dissatisfaction was proved to be without cause, Lucifer was convinced that he was in the wrong, that the divine claims were just, and that he ought to acknowledge them as such before all heaven. Had he done this, he might have saved himself and many angels. He had not at this time fully cast off his allegiance to God. Though he had forsaken his position as covering cherub, yet if he had been willing to return to God, acknowledging the Creator's wisdom, and satisfied to fill the place appointed him in God's great plan, he would have been reinstated in his office. But pride forbade him to submit. He persistently defended his own course, maintained that he had no need of repentance, and fully committed himself, in the great controversy, against his Maker. {GC 495.3}

Re: Are there any excuses for sinning? [Re: Mountain Man] #93009
11/22/07 03:10 PM
11/22/07 03:10 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Rosangela, do you agree with Tom, that God would have pardoned Lucifer's "sin", without shedding the blood of Jesus, if he had repented and submitted to His authority? If so, does this also mean, as Tom believes, that God did not shed the blood of Jesus because justice demands death for mankind's sin?

AG 139
Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon. {AG 139.2}

1BC 1086
In the plan of redemption there must be the shedding of blood, for death must come in consequence of man's sin. The beasts for sacrificial offerings were to prefigure Christ. In the slain victim, man was to see the fulfillment for the time being of God's word, "Ye shall surely die" {1BC 1086.7}

Re: Are there any excuses for sinning? [Re: Mountain Man] #93021
11/22/07 08:05 PM
11/22/07 08:05 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
Aren't the following quotes (taken from your recent posts) referring to the same time period in Lucifer's downward path?

"But he chose to carry his points at all hazards." 4P 319

"But pride forbade him to submit." GC 496


No. Here's the first one:

 Quote:
Satan had excited sympathy in his favor by representing that God had dealt unjustly with him in bestowing supreme honor upon Christ. Before he was sentenced to banishment from Heaven, his course was with convincing clearness shown to be wrong, and he was granted an opportunity to confess his sin, and submit to God's authority as just and righteous. But he chose to carry his points at all hazards. To sustain his charge of God's injustice toward him, he resorted to misrepresentation, even of the words and acts of the Creator.(4SP 319)


This is speaking of the point in time where Lucifer was shown to be wrong. Several paragraphs later she writes:

 Quote:
He was not immediately dethroned when he first ventured to indulge the spirit of discontent and insubordination, nor even when he began to present his false claim and lying representations before the loyal angels. Long was he retained in Heaven. Again and again was he offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission. Such efforts as God alone could make, were made to convince him of his error, and restore him to the path of rectitude. God would preserve the order of the heavens, and had Lucifer been willing to return to his allegiance, humble and obedient, he would have been re-established in his office as covering cherub.


Notice she writes "He was not immediately dethroned when he first ventured to indulge the spirit of discontent and insubordination, nor even when he began to present his false claim and lying representations before the loyal angels. Long was he retained in Heaven."

This is not the same time as Lucifer's chance to confess, but is long after. ("long was he retained in heaven."

Here's the GC statement:

 Quote:
He was not immediately degraded from his exalted station when he first indulged the spirit of discontent, nor even when he
496


began to present his false claims before the loyal angels. Long was he retained in heaven. Again and again he was offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission. Such efforts as only infinite love and wisdom could devise were made to convince him of his error. The spirit of discontent had never before been known in heaven. Lucifer himself did not at first see whither he was drifting; he did not understand the real nature of his feelings. But as his dissatisfaction was proved to be without cause, Lucifer was convinced that he was in the wrong, that the divine claims were just, and that he ought to acknowledge them as such before all heaven. Had he done this, he might have saved himself and many angels. He had not at this time fully cast off his allegiance to God. Though he had forsaken his position as covering cherub, yet if he had been willing to return to God, acknowledging the Creator's wisdom, and satisfied to fill the place appointed him in God's great plan, he would have been reinstated in his office.


You can see that this is the same period of time as the "after" statement from 1SG 319, not from the time he was first given an opportunity to confess his sin.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are there any excuses for sinning? [Re: Tom] #93022
11/22/07 08:17 PM
11/22/07 08:17 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
“He [Satan] and his followers repented, wept and implored to be taken back into the favor of God. But no, their sin, their hate, their envy and jealousy, had been so great that God could not blot it out. It must remain to receive its final punishment.” {1SG 18.1}

I understand that if their sin had not been so great (that is, if they hadn’t rebelled), it could have been blotted out.


Here's the reason Satan could not be taken back:

 Quote:
Christ wept at Satan's woe, but told him, as the mind of God, that he could never be received into Heaven. Heaven must not be placed in jeopardy. All Heaven would be marred should he be received back; for sin and rebellion originated with him. The seeds of rebellion were still within him. (1SP 29)


It wasn't an arbitrary decision on the part of God that Satan's sin had been too great, but Satan had ruined himself.

 Quote:
He had, in his rebellion, no occasion for his course, and he had not only hopelessly ruined himself, but the host of angels also, who would then have been happy in Heaven had he remained steadfast. (next sentence)


Satan wasn't sorry for what he did, nor recognized what he did was wrong, but didn't like the results of his decision.

His character had not changed. That God correctly judged this is seen by the following:

 Quote:
When Satan became fully convinced that there was no possibility of his being re-instated in the favor of God, he manifested his malice with increased hatred and fiery vehemence. (next paragraph)


This is the way it is with sin in general. It ruins those who partake of it. God's grace is greater than any sin. His ability to forgive is not limited. But sin hardens our hearts, and there comes a time when we are no longer willing or able to respond to the wooing of the Holy Spirit. The unpardonable sin is unpardonable not because God is not will or able to pardon, but because the sinner is no longer willing or able to receive it.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are there any excuses for sinning? [Re: Tom] #93023
11/22/07 08:22 PM
11/22/07 08:22 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
Rosangela, do you agree with Tom, that God would have pardoned Lucifer's "sin", without shedding the blood of Jesus, if he had repented and submitted to His authority? If so, does this also mean, as Tom believes, that God did not shed the blood of Jesus because justice demands death for mankind's sin?


MM, don't you remember our conversations about this? ("our" being you me an Rosangela.) Well, I can't be too hard on you because I forget a lot of these things as well.

At first Rosangela wasn't sure if Lucifer had sinned or not. Then she came across the 1SG 319 statement, and came to the conclusion that Lucifer had sinned, but it wasn't a sin which required the death of Christ (which is necessary conclusion, in order not to agree with my argument).

She doesn't agree with my argument.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are there any excuses for sinning? [Re: Tom] #93037
11/23/07 04:11 PM
11/23/07 04:11 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, here's how I see it (the relationship between the two different paragraphs in 4SP 319-320):

1. "Before he was sentenced to banishment from Heaven, his course was with convincing clearness shown to be wrong, and he was granted an opportunity to confess his sin, and submit to God's authority as just and righteous. But he chose to carry his points at all hazards."

NOTE: When Lucifer was finally convinced of his sin and wrongdoing, which happened just before he was banished from heaven, God offered him one last opportunity to submit to His authority, but Lucifer chose to rebel openly instead.

2. "Long was he retained in Heaven. Again and again was he offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission. Such efforts as God alone could make, were made to convince him of his error, and restore him to the path of rectitude."

NOTE: The expression "long was he retained in heaven" is not limited to time after Lucifer was convinced of his sin and wrongdoing. It began with when he "first ventured to indulge the spirit of discontent", that is, before he was convinced ofhis sin and wrongdoing. Also, the context of this paragrpah places the moment Lucifer was finally convinced of his sin and wrongdoing in the future.

Page 5 of 28 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 27 28

Moderator  dedication, Rick H 

Sabbath School Lesson Study Material Link
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
Most Recent Posts From Selected Public Forums
What are the seven kings of Rev. 17:10?
by Rick H. 11/23/24 07:31 AM
No mail in Canada?
by Rick H. 11/22/24 06:45 PM
Seven Trumpets reconsidered
by Karen Y. 11/21/24 11:03 AM
Fourth quarter, 2024, The Gospel of John
by asygo. 11/20/24 02:31 AM
The 2024 Election, the Hegelian Dialectic
by ProdigalOne. 11/15/24 08:26 PM
"The Lord's Day" and Ignatius
by dedication. 11/15/24 02:19 AM
The Doctrine of the Nicolaitans
by dedication. 11/14/24 04:00 PM
Will Trump be able to lead..
by dedication. 11/13/24 07:13 PM
Is Lying Ever Permitted?
by kland. 11/13/24 05:04 PM
Global Warming Farce
by kland. 11/13/24 04:06 PM
Profiles Of Jesus In Zecharia
by dedication. 11/13/24 02:23 AM
Good and Evil of Higher Critical Bible Study
by dedication. 11/12/24 07:31 PM
The Great White Throne
by dedication. 11/12/24 06:39 PM
A god whom his fathers knew not..
by TruthinTypes. 11/05/24 12:19 AM
Understanding the Battle of Armageddon
by Rick H. 10/25/24 07:25 PM
Most Recent Posts From Selected Private Forums of MSDAOL
Dr Ben Carson: Church and State
by Rick H. 11/22/24 07:12 PM
Perils of the Emerging Church Movement
by dedication. 11/22/24 04:02 PM
Will Trump Pass The Sunday Law?
by dedication. 11/22/24 12:51 PM
Understanding the 1,260-year Prophecy
by dedication. 11/22/24 12:35 PM
Private Schools
by Rick H. 11/22/24 07:54 AM
The Church is Suing the State of Maryland
by Rick H. 11/16/24 04:43 PM
Has the Catholic Church Changed?
by TheophilusOne. 11/16/24 08:53 AM
Dr Conrad Vine Banned
by Rick H. 11/15/24 06:11 AM
Understanding the 1290 & 1335 of Daniel 12?
by dedication. 11/05/24 03:16 PM
Forum Announcements
Visitors by Country Since February 11, 2013
Flag Counter
Google Maritime SDA OnLine Public Forums Site Search & Google Translation Service
Google
 
Web www.maritime-sda-online.com

Copyright 2000-Present
Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine).

LEGAL NOTICE:
The views expressed in this forum are those of individuals
and do not necessarily represent those of Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine,
as well as the Seventh-day Adventist Church
from the local church level to the General Conference level.

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine) is also a self-supporting ministry
and is not part of, or affiliated with, or endorsed by
The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland
or any of its subsidiaries.

"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1