TE: So Lucifer was given many opportunities to confess his sin. Do you agree with this? (not the whole thing I've laid out here, but just this one point that Lucifer was given many opportunities to confess his sin).

MM: No. He was granted "an" opportunity to confess his sin after he was convinced of wrongdoing. "But he chose to carry his points at all hazards."

"Before he was sentenced to banishment from Heaven, his course was with convincing clearness shown to be wrong, and he was granted an opportunity to confess his sin, and submit to God's authority as just and righteous. But he chose to carry his points at all hazards."

MM: Here's the sequence:

1. First, his course was with convincing clearness shown to be wrong.

2. Then, he was granted an opportunity to confess his sin.

"Before he was sentenced to banishment from Heaven, [1] his course was with convincing clearness shown to be wrong, [2] and he was granted an opportunity to confess his sin, and submit to God's authority as just and righteous. But he chose to carry his points at all hazards."

Lucifer was not guilty of wrongdoing before his course was with convincing clearness shown to be wrong. Again, he was simply investigating new and strange thoughts and feelings, asking hard questions, exploring every angle, even playing the "devil's advocate". Such tactics and behavior were, under the circumstances, pardonable.

Over a long period of time, Jesus, God, and angels tried to help Lucifer see things clearly. Eventually, he reached a crossroads, he was convinced his conclusions were wrong, either he had to reject them and be retained or retain them be rejected. Pride forbade him and he chose to pursue his points at all hazards. His fate was sealed, his destiny fixed.

MM: As of yet you haven't replied to this post.

That doesn't make sense, MM, because Lucifer was offered pardon again and again, not just once. If he was only offered one chance to confess his sin, then it would follow that he was only offered pardon once. A condition for pardon was the confession of his sin, thus each offer of pardon included an opportunity for Lucifer to confess his sin.

Of course he was guilty of wrongdoing. The fact that he was given an opportunity to confess his sin is proof that he was doing something wrong, or else there wouldn't have been any sin to confess.



These included "lying representations," which implies intent. Lucifer's "hard questions" were NOT sincere. They were an attempt to win converts to his side. This is in the EGW account.

Anyway, the fact that Lucifer was offered pardon and allowed to confess his sin demonstrates that he had sinned. Isn't this super obvious?



This doesn't match what she wrote. It's not simply that his conclusions were wrong (which he knew all the time; he knew that he did not deserve to be in the place of God), but his actions were wrong.



Indulging the spirit of discontent and insubordination was wrong. So was presenting his false claim and lying representations before the loyal angels.

Bearing false witness is one of the ten commandments. Breaking this commandment is sin.



Since he was given an opportunity to confess his sin, there had to be sin for him to confess. This sin is specified here as exciting sympathy in his favor by representing that God had dealt unjustly with him, the "lying representations" EGW speaks of in the other quote.

The statement does not say “lie,” but “lying representations,” and “lying” means false, untrue. She had already used “false” in the sentence, and obviously in order not to repeat the word, she used the word “lying.”


We have already discussed this at length. Suffice it to say, as Mike pointed out, that the passage says, “Before he was sentenced to banishment from Heaven, his course was with convincing clearness shown to be wrong, and he was granted an opportunity to confess his sin, and submit to God's authority as just and righteous.”
If this had been the first opportunity, Ellen White most probably would have said “several opportunities.” In this last opportunity, “his course was with convincing clearness shown to be wrong.” The clear implication is that now he saw quite clearly – he was convinced - that he was in the wrong.


Because this doesn’t mean that the person wasn’t wrong. Instead of neglect or willful transgression, the sin may be due to mental blindness, and when the person sees his mental blindness, of course he/she admits to be wrong.


God was trying to show or convince him that he was wrong, and of course when he admitted it, he would need to be pardoned.

Sins of ignorance sometimes involve neglect, which means the person is not entirely exempt from guilt.


I don’t think so. Ellen White implies his sin could just be blotted out.


A lack of knowledge may be due to neglect, or it may be due to mental blindness. Ellen White says Lucifer had an species of insanity.


No, and I don’t believe Lucifer’s was a willful sin.

The "lying representations" could not be such if they weren't lies. There has to be intent involved.

Here's another example of EGW using the phrase in regards to Lucifer's actions:



Here's another quote describing the same event, using different words:



In order to win converts to his side, Lucifer lied, misrepresenting God's character, by attributing to God his own evil characteristics. We know this took place before his final decision, because at his final decision he had converts at his side. How did he get the converts? He lied in regards to God's character. "Thus he deceived angels. Thus he deceived men."

Just as one would suspect, given the use of the word "lying," deception was involved, since that's what a lie is, an untruth told for the purpose of deception.



My point isn't in reference to that. My point is that if pardon is not necessary for sins of ignorance, then the sins Lucifer committed could not have been sins of ignorance. We haven't discussed this before.

However, I will address the point in regards to Lucifer's being given multiple opportunities to confess his sin, as opposed to just one. The condition for pardon was repentance. You cannot have repentance without a recognition that what you have done is wrong, which is to say, confession. Therefore the fact that Lucifer was offered pardon again and again means Lucifer was given the opportunity to confess his sin again and again. Really, what else could it mean?

It doesn't make any sense to say that he many chances to repent of his sin but only one chance to confess his sin.



Where there is no light, there is no sin, and no frown of God. I'm not understanding why there would be a need for pardon if there was no light, or sin, or frown of God.



He would already have had to know he was wrong in order to be offered pardon. Think about it. One of the conditions of the pardon was to repent. He could not repent without knowing he was wrong.

What you believe is that Lucifer didn't know what he was doing was wrong, correct? For example:



Lucifer was obviously acting willfully here, and obviously sinning. To mention just one thing, he was trying to gain converts, and in order to do so, he hid his true purpose. This is clearly willful.

But he thought, at this point in time, that he wasn't doing anything wrong. That's the reason it wasn't a willful sin.

I'm not wishing to rehash old ground here, just verifying that I understand your point of view correctly.

You can lie without an intent to deceive, if you believe that that which you are speaking is true. This is what Eve, for instance, did:

“The temptation to transgress was presented by Eve, who, having herself eaten of the forbidden fruit and realized no immediate harm, offered some of it to Adam, telling him of the great advantages of which they were deprived by not being allowed to eat of it.” {ST, October 10, 1900 par. 2} (See also TA 56.4.)

As to Lucifer, this is what GC says:

“All the powers of his master-mind were now [after his fall] bent to the work of deception, to secure the sympathy of the angels that had been under his command. ... To those whose loving trust bound them most closely to him, Satan had represented that he was wrongly judged, that his position was not respected, and that his liberty was to be abridged. From misrepresentation of the words of Christ, he passed to prevarication and direct falsehood, accusing the Son of God of a design to humiliate him before the inhabitants of Heaven. ... And to sustain his charge of God's injustice toward him, he resorted to misrepresentation of the words and acts of the Creator. {GC 495-496}

Please notice that all this happened after Satan’s fall.


No. Notice what GC says above: “All the powers of his master-mind were now bent to the work of deception, to secure the sympathy of the angels that had been under his command.”


I think that in this last time he was given a public chance to confess his sin.


You are considering two completely different cases. Lucifer had cherished wrong feelings and done wrong things.


That he was wrong was a growing realization. “Perhaps I’m wrong... I think I’m wrong... I’m wrong!” At this last time “his course was with convincing clearness shown to be wrong” (citing from memory).


He thought God had really treated him unjustly. He thought the law really imposed an unnecessary restraint.