Where did Jesus teach this?



This isn't a good idea, to accept something you don't understand (if you can't explain something, you don't understand it). This is also a huge hint that there is something wrong in your paradigm if it leads you to believe things that don't make sense to you (if it made sense, you could explain it).



I see an assertion here, but no evidence. Where did Jesus teach be example that God did not not freely forgive sin? That He needed a penalty to be paid in order to forgive?

I can think of several times where Jesus forgave sins. He forgave the paralytic. He forgave the woman caught in adultery. Where was the blood? Who or what was killed by Jesus before he forgave them?

What example did you have in mind? It seems to me that Jesus' example was diametrically opposed to what you are suggesting. His example was to freely forgive.



It seems to me that from these verses you should be able to see that a penal view is not being presented here. If sacrifice allows God to forgive, then how would willfully sinning make God unable to forgive? That doesn't make sense, right? That would make us limiting God.

Rather, isn't it clear that Hebrews is speaking here of the sin of hardening our hearts so that *we* lose the capacity to be forgiven?

There's nothing penal here at all.

Did you look at the Fifield quotes? Perhaps there's something in them we could discuss.

Jesus is the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." The sacrificial system symbolized His death. Sins required death to make atonement. No death meant no pardon, no forgiveness, no atonement. On the day of atonement, sins were rolled back upon disingenuous sinners who were then excommunicated. Jesus was able to forgive people based on the efficacy of His impending sacrifice.

Jesus never said anywhere any of the things in your post here, MM. You haven't presented a single thing from Jesus' life or teaching to support your position. To support mine I cite:

a)Jesus' treatment of the paralytic.
b)Jesus' treatment of the woman caught in adultery.
c)Jesus' parable of the prodigal son.
d)Jesus' parable of the king who pardoned the servant.
e)Jesus' teachings on the sermon on the mount (turn the other cheek, etc.)
f)Jesus' actions on the cross (e.g. "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do).

You didn't address my post, it doesn't look like. Did you read the Fifield quotes? Perhaps there's something in them we could discuss. Do they make sense to you?

Jesus taught the Jews in the OT. No death meant no forgiveness. Do you disagree?

Yes, I disagree. Do you recognize that there was a necessity for Jesus to come in the flesh in order to reveal God to us? From your comments, it appears you think this was unnecessary.

Anyway, back to my question. I'm asking where Jesus Christ, while here in the flesh, in either His teachings or actions, ever depicted God as not being able to forgive unless a payment of blood was made.

Changing tacks a bit, but as a response to your questions about the Old Testament, how do you understand this?

Jesus established the sacrificial system of atonement. He gave us the laws of Moses. He supported them while here in the flesh. Not once did He change or contradict what He commanded in the OT. Do you agree?

John
5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Matthew
23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

You didn't answer my questions, MM. There were two.

God in the Old Testament was not understood. He still isn't. To clear away the confusion, God came in the flesh, so that we could understand Him.







If God in the Old Testament had been understood, then Christ would not have had to make Him known. The necessity for the "whole purpose" of Christ's mission, the revelation of God, existed exactly because God had not been misunderstood.

So what is the truth about God? It is precisely that which Christ revealed on earth. His whole purpose was to do just that. It is defeating the very purpose for which Christ came to go away from His life and teachings while here on earth to explain something which you can't explain by His life and teachings.

To say this more simply, anything you have to say about God you should be able to explain by the life and teachings of Christ. All that man can know about God was revealed in the life and character of His Son.

I've substantiated my position with many statements and examples from the life of Christ. But to substantiate your position, you are wanting to go outside of that which, according to Ellen White, reveals all that can be known about God.

It's inconceivable that Christ came here to earth, and never explained the purpose of His death.

To answer directly your question to me, Christ explained what the OT meant.

Tom, I do not believe what Jesus said and did in the OT accounts for why people misunderstood the character of God. Jesus made that clear when He said, "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

He is saying, If you want to know what I and my Father are like - READ THE OLD TESTAMENT. The fact people did not know God is the fault of the Pharisees and other leaders. Do not blame the OT. Do not blame what Jesus said and did in the OT.

Again, Jesus made it abundantly clear that there can be no forgiveness without the death of a divine substitute. His name, Lamb of God, testifies to this fact. People who refused to confess their sins upon a sacrificial lamb were unforgiven and eventually excommunicated. No death equals no atonement.

Jesus said, whatever my Father speaks, I speak; whatever I see my Father doing, I do. Where did Jesus hear and see these things? How did Jesus learn about God? By reading the Old Testament.

Jesus said, "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father," which is Him saying, "If you want to know what my view of the Old Testament God is, Look at Me!"

IMO, You've got this complete backwards. Jesus was not saying, if you want to understand Me, read the Old Testament. He was saying, if you want to understand the Old Testament, read Me.

People still don't understand the Old Testament, because they see something different from the Old Testament than they do in the New. It is because God was not understood that Jesus came, which the quotes I provided point out. No one ever understood the Old Testament as clearly as Jesus did.

Consider Hebrews 1. What you are wanting to do is to prefer the dim light of a candle to the blazing light of the Son.

You haven't answered my questions. I'll repeat them.

The first question I have is where did Jesus Christ, during His ministry on earth, teach that God did not have the legal right to forgive us unless He died. If you want to try to answer this from some other part of Scripture, go ahead, but that doesn't answer my question, which is where did Jesus, during His ministry on earth, teach this (although, in reality, nowhere in Scripture teaches this idea, which didn't even exist at the time Scripture was written, the idea not being invented for centuries afterwards. The Eastern Orthodox church *still* does not have this idea, because it split off from the Roman Catholic church before Anselm.)

The other two question, which I have been asking you are:



and



From what you have written, I think I can make a good guess as to how you would answer the second question. I think you would say that God was misunderstood because of the influence of the Jewish leaders, which is why it was necessary for Jesus to reveal the truth about God.

However, I can't see that you've addressed the other two questions in any way. I take your refusal to cite anything from Jesus' life and teachings during His ministry on earth as tacit agreement that there is nothing to cite; that is, He didn't teach these things. If you disagree with this assessment, please cite something.

Regarding the third question, I don't think you've in any way addressed this. I'm very interested in what your thoughts are on this.

Tom, the idea that what Jesus said and did in the OT is not as valid as what He said and did in the NT is totally bogus. Perhaps this is not what you're saying, but that's what it sounds like to me. You keep insisting that I quote Jesus in the NT to support penal and substitutionary atonement as if what He said elsewhere carries less weight. The following passages confirm the truth.

John
7:30 Then they sought to take him: but no man laid hands on him, because his hour was not yet come.
8:20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.
12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

Galatians
3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

Isaiah
53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.
53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.