Tom, if sin kills sinners, why, then, did Jesus command people in the OT and the NT to stone sinners to death? Also, why did He have to ban sinners from eating of the tree of life?

1.I assume by "if sin kills sinners" you mean "if sin results in death." Is that correct?

2.Jesus did not command people in the NT to stone sinners. That you could come up with such an idea is odd.

3.What are sinners? Do you mean people with fallen natures? Or people who sin?

1. What is the difference?

2. Jesus said, "... let him first cast a stone at her." Did He mean it? Or, did He mean something else? Was He setting aside the law of Moses?

3. Sinners are people who have fallen natures and who sin.

4. Also, why did He have to ban sinners from eating of the tree of life?

5. What did Jesus mean when He said, "The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp."

It depends on what you meant. If you say, "what's the difference?" I take that to mean that you mean that sin results in death.



You've read the account, right? Those who hated Jesus were trying to trick Him, putting Him into a situation where He had no outs, or so they thought. They tried this on many occasions. But Jesus knew what they were up.

It was Jesus' intent to pardon the woman, obviously. He obviously was not intending that she be killed, right?



You mean "sinners" has these two meanings, or "sinners" refers only to people who have both of these characteristics?



For a similar reason that God allowed meat to be eaten after the flood.



Well, Jesus didn't say that in the first place. "Jesus" refers to the human being, who did not exist at that time.

In the second place, I'm not interested in discussing this at this time.

In the third place, the point that I've been making is that you're approach here is backwards, and I think continuing to ask these Old Testament questions just makes the same point I'm making over and over again.

Jesus Christ (correct usage here!) was a *full* revelation of God. *All* that man needs to know or can know about God was revealed in His life and character. Therefore it is not necessary to ask questions regarding things outside of His life and teachings in order to learn new or additional things about God. Indeed, if what Ellen White wrote is accurate and correct, it should be easy to see that this is not necessary.

One might ask, then why do we need the Old Testament at all? The reason for the Old Testament is to point us to Christ, in whom we find life, as Jesus said, "Ye search the Scriptures, that ye might have life, but they are they which testify of Me."

1. No. Sin is not what causes sinners to die. It is because they have sinned that God punishes and destroys sinners.

2. "He obviously was not intending that she be killed, right?" Why, then, did He say, "... let him first cast a stone at her"? Was He setting aside the law of Moses?

3. Sinners are people. They sin. They have fallen natures.

4. "For a similar reason that God allowed meat to be eaten after the flood." I assume you mean so that they would die and not live forever. But, according to you, sin is what causes sinners to die, not what they eat or don't eat.

5. "Well, Jesus didn't say that in the first place. 'Jesus' refers to the human being, who did not exist at that time." Not according to Paul. Christ was the one who led the Jews in the OT.

"In the second place, I'm not interested in discussing this at this time." Fair enough. But it is preventing us from studying the truth about Jesus and the Father.

"All that man needs to know or can know about God was revealed in His life and character." This is not true.

"Indeed, if what Ellen White wrote is accurate and correct, it should be easy to see that this is not necessary." You are not taking into account everything she wrote about Jesus and the Father. You are forcing her words to mean something more than she intended. She never meant for us to ignore Jesus in the OT, or to assume whatever we learn about Jesus in the OT must be forced to agree with His NT example.

In the NT, Jesus never commanded people to kill sinners. In the NT, Jesus didn't create the world, or thunder on Sinai, or give the ten commandments, or rain down fire in answer to prayer, or threaten to curse on condition of disobedience, etc, etc, etc. How do you explain these differences?

Death is the punishment for sin. It is "not an arbitrary act of power on the part of God." As the quote points out:





This sounds like what the Pharisees were arguing! Jesus' plan all along was to pardon the woman. You agree with that, don't you? Let's start here.



MM, your original statement was vague. I was asking for clarification. I gave the two possible things you could have meant. All you had to do was pick one, but instead you didn't clarify the ambiguity, and I don't even remember what your original point was anymore.



It's not according to me! All of Scripture teaches that sin results in death. To live in harmony with the principles of God's law is life. To do the opposite is death.

There is no life in living selfishly.



The law of self-renouncing love is the law of life. The law of selfishness is the law of death.



Where did Paul say that "Jesus" led the Jews in the OT? (Please note, I didn't say he said "Christ" wasn't the one who led the Jews, but "Jesus." Your error was speaking of "Jesus" as doing things in the OT. Paul didn't make this error, did he? If so, where?)



No it's not. According to the Spirit of Prophecy, all that man needs to know, or can know, of God was revealed in the life and teachings of Jesus. So we can study everything we need from looking there.



Well, you're free to disagree with Ellen White's statement, but I think it's true. I guess there's not much more to say about that.



I think she meant what she said, which is very clear.



She writes, "Only that which He sees fit to reveal can we comprehend of Him." and then "All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son." So it's easy to see she is saying that God has seen fit to reveal all that we need to know, or can know, of Him through His Son.

She quotes John speaking to the same subject. Paul also makes this point. Christ removes the veil.



I would look for the underlying principles of the events described, and find things in the life and character of Jesus Christ where these same principles apply. Please note that Ellen White's quote says that in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ is everything that man needs to know or can know of God. This does not imply that Christ did everything in His life that God has done, which He couldn't have, being a man who lived for 33 years or so. However, Christ revealed in His ministry everything that we need to know of God, or can know of God.

So really, you're not asking the right question. The right question is, "What did Jesus Christ during His ministry reveal about God through His life and character?"

Ensuring the survival of humanity as a species?
It sounds like you would acctually support the statement that the purpose of the Law is to show us how desperately we are in need of a saviour.

No, I was thinking of the statement by EGW that God permitted man to eat meat, knowing that this would diminish man's life span, which would result in less for a man during his lifetime. It was rather a cryptic reference. I knew MM was familiar with it, so wasn't very clear.



Sure, why not? Actually, I wouldn't say "the purpose," but definitely a purpose, and a very important one at that.

If God wanted to limmit mans lifespan by meateating, who are we to work against God's purposes by refusing to eat that which God ordained for making sure our lives are suitably short? Is that not a case of us kicking against the pricks? Oh, just because this option usually is viewed as heresy by many SDA.

I'm not following this. Could you clarify what you're saying here please? What is it that those SDA who view this as heresy believe?