Tom, I accept that you didn't mean to offend, and I'm sorry to have given you cause to feel hurt. My last paragraph was probably a bit extreme.

I've expressed myself clearly in a PM, and I see no reason to repeat anything here.

Looking back at your reply to me, I will repeat, however, that it would be more pleasant if you would engage in a friendly dialogue here, rather than viewing all posts as the argument of "the opposition." (e.g. "red herring," "Is there some point you were making you thought I would disagre with?" and others)

It would also help if you would not set up straw men -- i.e. expand on what someone wrote and then knock down the expanded argument.

Rather than arguing about what Graham Maxwell does or does not believe, I recommend to you and others this article:
Why Did Jesus Have to Die? Here Maxwell explicitly spells out his view of the atonement, and he includes the substitutionary aspect, as he seldom does in his lectures.

For all who read this topic, I'd like to recommend the free lectures available on Dr. Maxwell's site:
God in All 66. In this series he walks the hearer through the Bible and highlights what each book says about the character of our loving God. If you've never heard Graham Maxwell speak, you're in for a treat. Few have as comforting and loving a voice as he has -- a voice to match the message of reconciliation that he preaches.

It's wonderful Sabbath listening, as are the other lectures on his site.

A Happy Sabbath to all!

Inga

Posted by mistake.

Ok, thanks Inga. I responded to the PM, and agree that that's fine.

I'm certain we were misunderstanding each other. Sorry about that.

I realize you are busy. When you have the time to post, I'll be glad to see what you have to say. From your comments, it sounds like we're on the same wave length.

MM: So, sinners will die a second time because of what God will do, right?


MM: In the same way "God does something artificial" to keep sinners alive now so that they can play their part in the GC, one could say He will do something artificial to keep them alive in the lake of fire so that they can suffer punishment in proportion to their sinfulness.

I have no idea why you want to think this way. Isn't it more pleasant to think that people die because of what they do?

From Scripture we read, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." "The wages of sin is death." "The sting of death is sin." and so forth. Sin is to death as the acorn is to the oak.

From the Spirit of Prophecy we read:



This is nice. God is the life-giver. Sin results in suffering and death, inevitably. Not because of God, but in spite of God. God has no desire that anyone should suffer or die.



God does something to allow people the opportunity to be saved. God is good. He doesn't to evil. He is not cruel. He wouldn't do such a awful thing as to keep people artificially alive so that he could cause them excruciating pain.

It appears that you think it is necessary that people suffer physical pain in order to be punished for what they have done. Why do you think this?

It seems to me that both of you -- MM & TE -- are creating polarization with your arguments. The things you both say are not mutually exclusive.

God is the Author and Sustainer of life. Creatures that attempt to live independently from Him would automatically die unless God "artificially" kept them alive.

God has kept Satan and his angels alive so that all the universe might see things as they really are -- that sin results in death.

God kept Adam and Eve alive that they might repent and develop mature characters through the hard experiences of their lives.

God keeps us sinners alive so that we might develop characters that are safe to take to heaven.

Who are we to argue how long God should keep unrepentant sinners alive -- either now or in the judgment by fire?

If God is sovereign, His withdrawal of life-sustaining power results in death -- no matter when/how He does it.

Let's look at a human parallel: Someone is on life support in a hospital and cannot live without it. Let's say you went into the hospital and pulled the plug. Will you not be accused of killing the person who was on life support?

Biblical writers often express that God actively did what we might say He only "allowed." Moses says God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Yet in another place we read that Pharaoh hardened his heart.

Should we demand "better" expressions of posters on this forum than the Bible writers themselves used?

Item:
God withdraws His life-sustaining power = God kills.

Even the Bible says so! In fact, the Bible chronicles God's judging/killing by drowning, by fire, by hail stones and various other means. Prophecy tells us that, in the last judgment, He will kill by fire, even though He could just as well just stop keeping sinners alive.

Can't we just let the Bible words stand?

I agree with this.

The question is, what do the Bible words mean? What is God actually doing? What is actually going on? These questions are important to understanding God's character.

For example, MM believes that God will supernaturally keep people alive during the judgment so that they will experience pain, as this is necessary in order for them to pay for their sins; justice demands this.

Would God really do such a thing? Is God really like this? I think these are very important questions.



I've made this point many times. I think it's a key point, perhaps *the* key point in understanding these types of questions. God humbly accepts the responsibility for what happens in His universe.

As Christ put it:



The bedrock question is, I believe, "What is God really like?" The answer is, I believe, that God is just like Jesus Christ.

TE: I have no idea why you want to think this way. Isn't it more pleasant to think that people die because of what they do?

MM: It's both, Tom. It's take the unveiled glory of God and unpardoned sins to kill sinners a second time.

TE: God does something to allow people the opportunity to be saved.

MM: This doesn't apply to the fallen angels. God is keeping them artificially alive, too. In the same way God kept the three Hebrew worthies artificially alive in the fiery furnace, He will keep the unsaved sinners artificially alive in the lake of fire until they have suffered punishment in proportion to their sinfulness.

The fact God keeps sinners artificially alive is what makes it possible for sinners to commit more than one sin. Otherwise they would die after the first sin, and there would be no reason to keep them artificially alive in order for them to suffer in proportion to that one sin.

But because they have committed hundreds of sins, it is necessary for God to keep them artificially alive in order to suffer punishment for each and every sin they committed (instead of dying prematurely for the first sin they committed).

TE: It appears that you think it is necessary that people suffer physical pain in order to be punished for what they have done. Why do you think this?

MM: Physical pain is only part of it. They will suffer all aspects of punishment.

Inga: God withdraws His life-sustaining power = God kills.

MM: This is only part of the equation. He also punishes them according to their sinfulness, and then He "pulls the plug" and they die.