Hi Mike,
I want you to know that actually, I am as pleased as punch that there is actually an Adventist pastor out there who cares about and advocates perfection of character
..Most of the time I just seem to be encountered with those who are liberal-minded and who seem to advocate that we can pretty much do whatever we want to and still be saved, ... an idea that just makes me cringe.
It is great to have someone to discuss this with who is on the opposite end of the track. I still have to go through and read all of the stuff that was posted on this thread though.
I was going to go look up the words "new heart" on the search thing at the EG White estate website but I seem to get an error message today when I try to go there. I dont know if its just my computer connection or what, thats the problem.
But anyway, you asked if there are any moral sins that we could not realize we have yet and still be converted.
Mike, to answer you, I view this whole thing this way... (Now I might change my mind though, after reading your stuff and talking to you)...
I view Jesus and His character as so perfectly perfect that when I look at Him in how He lived, how He related to others, etc... that in contrast, my "righteousness" just seems as nothing to me. In every way, in every thought, every moment of His life... Jesus had perfect love, perfect unselfishness.
And so, I, in contrast to that, am just so unlike that. I can see all sorts of imperfections in me. Think for instance, of this fact... "Sin" consists of not only refraining from doing certain wrong acts but also in "doing" all sorts of things. When I look at the Spirit of Prophecy books and I read all of the many many things that I ought to be doing to help others, to win souls, to encourage others, and on and on... I wouldnt even dream for a moment of claiming to God that I am doing every one of those things. Think of Daniel and what he said ... in Daniel chapter 9:
2: In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.
3: And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplication, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:
4: And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;
5: We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments:
6: Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.
7: O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee.
8: O Lord, to us belongeth confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee.
9: To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;
10: Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets.
Even Daniel confessed the imperfections of his ways and the sinfulness of he and God's people. And I cant imagine that he and some of the others were not "born again" or converted, can you?
I view this issue as that the law is so broad, as said in the Spirit of Prophecy. (I will have to copy & paste that for you whenever I can get back onto that EG White estate)... anyway, the law is SO broad that it reaches down to every little thing we do. For instance, Jesus said something like this,
Matthew 5
20: For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
and Jesus said other things about the fact that the law was so broad, extending even to our very thoughts.
So yes, I believe we are constantly going against these laws. I for sure am not doing all I ought to be doing to help my neighbors. If I lose one opportunity to help someone, I have sinned. If I have one thought that is wrong about someone, I have sinned. If I havent presented the gospel message to someone and allow them to die without hearing it because of my neglect, I have robbed them, stolen from them. And so on.
Maybe I dont understand what you mean by the word "moral" but yes, I do think we can be doing moral sins and not realize that.
I view perfection as in a way that I read in Testimony Treasures, a complilation book of the Spirit of Prophecy. It said something like, "When it is in the heart to help others and to live for the glory of God, then we are perfect". (sorry I cant get you exact quotation right now)
Also, the Spirit of Prophecy says that when it is in the heart to obey, Jesus puts His covering of righteousness over us.
However, I must admit though, this confuses me because in the Spirit of Prophecy it also says that we cannot be justified if we commit one known sin.
This issue of perfection is one that confused me, Mike. I would like to understand it. I wish that somehow I could have this collection of quotations that you have so I could study them
Well anyway, I will be back, and for now I am going to go start from the beginning of this thread and try to read all that has been said on it, -particularly what you have said so far. I usually am pretty well "locked-in" on my opinions when it comes to most things, but on this issue, I am not.
I freely admit, it confuses me. Do they have a "confused-look" icon in here? :/
Also, I really do believe that this whole subject, righteouness by faith, perfection, etc, is what really matters. Nothing is more important than this.
Claudia