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Re: Can sinning be overcome.... [Re: Tom] #96149
03/02/08 06:42 PM
03/02/08 06:42 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
John
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Yes, this is, of course, an awesome text; but what about the cross? It doesn't mention the cross. And, what about mercy and forgiveness, faith and works, law and grace, righteousness and true holiness? Are these things too complicated to be included in your formula?

Re: Can sinning be overcome.... [Re: Mountain Man] #96161
03/02/08 11:56 PM
03/02/08 11:56 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
Yes, this is, of course, an awesome text; but what about the cross? It doesn't mention the cross. And, what about mercy and forgiveness, faith and works, law and grace, righteousness and true holiness? Are these things too complicated to be included in your formula?


John 3:16 doesn't mention the cross?

 Quote:
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.(John 3:14-16)


Surely you can see this is a reference to the cross.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Can sinning be overcome.... [Re: Tom] #96163
03/03/08 12:36 AM
03/03/08 12:36 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Verse 14 implies the cross; but verse 16 doesn't. Also, it doesn't say anything about mercy and forgiveness, faith and works, law and grace, righteousness and true holiness. Are these things too complicated to be included in a formula?

Re: Can sinning be overcome.... [Re: Mountain Man] #96169
03/03/08 02:13 AM
03/03/08 02:13 AM
Tom  Offline
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Posts: 14,795
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 Quote:
Verse 14 implies the cross; but verse 16 doesn't.


Of course it does! Take a look again, please:

 Quote:
14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Verse 16 can't be cut off from verse 14. It's part of the same thought!

 Quote:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16.

The heart of God yearns over His earthly children with a love stronger than death. In giving up His Son, He has poured out to us all heaven in one gift.

Through that gift there comes to us day by day the unfailing flow of Jehovah's goodness. Every flower, with its delicate tints and sweet fragrance, is given for our enjoyment through that one Gift. The sun and moon were made by Him; there is not a star that beautifies the heavens which He did not make. There is not an article of food upon our tables that He has not provided for our sustenance. The superscription of Christ is upon it all. Everything is supplied to man through the one unspeakable Gift, the only-begotten Son of God. He was nailed to the cross that all these bounties might flow to God's workmanship. (FILB 45)


It's amazing to me that you could consider John 3:16 and not see the cross there.

 Quote:
The revelation of God's love to man centers in the cross. Its full significance tongue cannot utter, pen cannot portray, the mind of man cannot comprehend. Looking upon the cross of Calvary, we can only say, "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). (Reflecting Christ 33)


 Quote:
-Justification by faith is to many a mystery. A sinner is justified by God when he repents of his sins. He sees Jesus upon the cross of Calvary. Why all this suffering? The law of Jehovah has been broken. The law of God's government in heaven and earth has been transgressed, and the penalty of sin is pronounced to be death. But "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Oh, what love, what matchless love! Christ, the Son of God, dying for guilty man! (3SM 193)


 Quote:
The revelation of God's love to men centers in the cross. Its full significance tongue cannot utter; pen cannot portray; the mind of man cannot comprehend. Looking upon the cross of Calvary we can only say: "God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. (8T 287)


What is it you think Jesus was talking about in John 3:16?

 Quote:
Also, it doesn't say anything about mercy and forgiveness, faith and works, law and grace, righteousness and true holiness. Are these things too complicated to be included in a formula?


I'm amazed you can look at John 3:16 and not see the cross, nor anything about righteousness, holiness, mercy and forgiveness. The above quotes by Ellen White bring out all these things, and hopefully make clear these things so you can see them.

 Quote:
And as Christ draws them to look upon His cross, to behold Him whom their sins have pierced, the commandment comes home to the conscience. The wickedness of their life, the deep-seated sin of the soul, is revealed to them. They begin to comprehend something of the righteousness of Christ, and exclaim, "What is sin, that it should require such a sacrifice for the redemption of its victim? Was all this love, all this suffering, all this humiliation, demanded, that we might not perish, but have everlasting life?"

The sinner may resist this love, may refuse to be drawn to Christ; but if he does not resist he will be drawn to Jesus; a knowledge of the plan of salvation will lead him to the foot of the cross in repentance for his sins, which have caused the sufferings of God's dear Son. (SC 27)


 Quote:
In every command or injunction that God gives there is a promise, the most positive, underlying the command. God has made provision that we may become like unto Him, and He will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace. (MB 76)


I think these statements bring out important ideas in regards to overcoming sin. They emphasize the love of God shining from the cross. As the sinner sees this love, he is moved to respond. This response of faith leads one to see sin in its proper light. The MB statement brings out that if one does not resist God's grace, God will accomplish His work in making such a one perfect. (EGW is commenting on the verse, "Be ye therefore perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect).

So the formula goes like this:
a.The love of God is revealed from the cross.
b.If the sinner does not resist, the sinner is led to see his sin in its proper light, and is led to repentance at the foot of the cross.
c.If the sinner does not resist, and interpose a perverse will, God's grace will make him like Jesus Christ.

The overcoming of sin is seen in its proper context as being a response to the love of God revealed at the cross.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Can sinning be overcome.... [Re: Tom] #96181
03/03/08 04:27 PM
03/03/08 04:27 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
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TE: Verse 16 can't be cut off from verse 14. It's part of the same thought!

MM: That's my point, Tom. Sometimes it is necessary to include the context in order to get the complete picture. I posted a formula, which was accompanied with several passages of Scripture, and you objected because the formula did not specifically list the elements you feel must be named.

John 3:16, divorced from its context, does not specifically name the cross. But from the context, not only of chapter 3 but of the entire Bible, I believe verse 16 includes the whole picture - mercy and forgiveness, faith and works, law and grace, righteousness and true holiness, etc.

TE: The MB statement brings out that if one does not resist God's grace, God will accomplish His work in making such a one perfect.

MM: Amen! However, we must be careful not to conclude perfecting character is effortless. I'm sure you agree.

TE: So the formula goes like this:
a. The love of God is revealed from the cross.
b. If the sinner does not resist, the sinner is led to see his sin in its proper light, and is led to repentance at the foot of the cross.
c. If the sinner does not resist, and interpose a perverse will, God's grace will make him like Jesus Christ.

MM: Amen! I totally agree with your formula. But which Scriptures explain it this way? Please post the Scriptures that support each element in your formula. Thank you.

Again, here is my formula, which is based on Isaiah 1:16, 17:

1. Cease to do evil (crucify self, the old man)
2. Learn to do well (imitate the holy example of Jesus)

Or, I could state it this way:

1. The love of God, as demonstrated by the death of Jesus, motivates us to cease to do evil.

2. The love of God, as demonstrated by the life of Jesus, motivates us to learn to do well.

At any rate, here the following Scriptures support each point in the formula:

 Quote:
Isaiah
1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

2 Corinthians
7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

1 Peter
2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Romans
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

John
3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

1 Peter
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

1 John
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Re: Can sinning be overcome.... [Re: Mountain Man] #96182
03/03/08 05:14 PM
03/03/08 05:14 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
1. The love of God, as demonstrated by the death of Jesus, motivates us to cease to do evil.

2. The love of God, as demonstrated by the life of Jesus, motivates us to learn to do well.


I think this is much better.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Can sinning be overcome.... [Re: Tom] #96258
03/05/08 02:31 PM
03/05/08 02:31 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Great. Moving on. At what point is it true? That is, when is it true we cease to do evil and begin doing well? Before we are born again? After we are born again? Or, gradually over the course of a lifetime? Do we become more and more like Jesus by gradually becoming less and less like Satan until we eventually cease to do evil and have learned to do well?

Tom, you and I have already discussed these questions, and we know ours answers to them, so, these questions are intended for others more than they are for you. That's not to say we cannot discuss them again.

Re: Can sinning be overcome.... [Re: Mountain Man] #96276
03/05/08 04:47 PM
03/05/08 04:47 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Before being born again, one can respond to the Holy Spirit and do some good things. But being born again is necessary in order for our wills and desires to become aligned with God's. Before being born again, we do not think in terms of doing things because they are pleasing to God, which is paramount.

As we receive more light, we become more and more like Jesus, progressing along a path of light until the day dawn.

I like how Ty Gibson puts it, in saying that our understanding of God's character, and our likeness to it, dovetail as one process (something like that).


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Can sinning be overcome.... [Re: Tom] #96358
03/06/08 03:46 PM
03/06/08 03:46 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Amen! The more we behold Jesus the more we become like our heavenly Father.

2 Corinthians
3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.
5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Re: Can sinning be overcome.... [Re: Mountain Man] #96362
03/06/08 04:30 PM
03/06/08 04:30 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Glad we're in agreement here! The text you cited is an outstanding one. I think you could build a nice formula for overcoming sin using this text as a base. In fact, if you did that, it's hard for me to see how such a formula would not turn out well.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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