Do you obey the laws of the land? If so, then are you truly free and free of fear?

Or, do you disregard the laws of the land? If so, have you ever been caught and imprisoned?


Do you fear death? If not, why not?

If you were imprisoned for breaking the laws of the land, would you kill yourself?

Are you happily married? Do you love your children? Do you enjoy spending quality time with your spouse and children? If so, do you really think spending eternity in heavenly bliss with your loved ones would be boring?


Where on this planet are people living as you believe? Where on this planet can people live according to the dictates of their own conscience? Is it even possible? Wouldn’t it require everyone to believe in and live by the same set of rules and standards? Otherwise, what if my standards of right and wrong conflict with your standards of right and wrong? Who would be right - me or you?


So far, though, all you have offered is the absence of Adventism. You haven’t offered anything better. Just because I attend public schools, just because I work on the Sabbath, just because I refuse to believe the 28 Fundamental Beliefs, just because I do not believe Jesus will reunite me and my deceased loved ones and live eternally in heavenly bliss – how is my life any better?

If you hope to save me from religion or Adventism you're going to have to make your offer more attractive. For example, if you bought a remote tropical island somewhere far away from people who disagree with your standards of right and wrong, and if it was governed in such a way that guarantees me no one will mess up my mojo, then I might be willing to accept your offer.

But, is such a thing even possible? Are humans capable of living peaceably with one another? If so, show me the proof. When and where has it happened? By what standards of right and wrong did they live? Who decided what was right and wrong?

If it hasn't happened yet, why not? Why do you think people have never been able to live peaceably with one another?

I grew up in California during the Hippie Movement - love, peace, joy, dope, and free sex. We often cited Jesus and the Bible to support our beliefs, especially what we believed about free sex. We called it love. I assumed Jesus advocated free sex because He spoke so much about love. It wasn't long, though, before I realized free love always ended in jealousy and fist fights. That's also when it began to dawn on me men and women were made to be monogamous.

So, it is more than semantics for me. Love must be clearly defined. And, from my perspective, love is not a god. There is a fundamental difference between who God is and what love is. Do you see what I mean?


And, what about people who forfeit salvation to serve sin? Isn't it right and natural for them to fear God, to be afraid of what He will do to them in judgment, in the lake of fire? The following passages say as much, don't they?

Hebrews
6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

Hebrews
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Matthew
18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

2 Peter
2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

True. In fact, too much salt is fatal. We need water.


And what does the salt look like when you put it in the water? Nothing. It disappears.

What if you take a glass of water, then add a lot of salt to it so that there's undissolved salt at the bottom? How do you make the salt disappear? You heat it up. What's the object lesson in that? But that's getting way off the topic.

Especially when love is defined as the world defines it. But in a biblical sense, God and love always go together.


Yes, they should be afraid. But increasing that fear does not make them faithful children of God; it just makes them more rebellious.

The love of Christ constrains. And perfect love casts out fear. That is what will make a sinner want to live with God forever.

Arnold, a heartfelt amen, brother. Thank you.

Just because they were not the answer you were looking for does not mean that they wont bring the right answer to somebody else who go seeking the same answer as you are but with different questions. The main difference is propably in who it includes and who it excludes. In who the "we" are that Jesus is adressing in the quote you gave. Though it is possible once again that you are more inclusive than my posts recognise. This is true, for our relationships with the muslim and with the buddhist and with the pagans and voodoo worshipers. But if you say about a baptist or a methodist or maybe a pentecostal that they worship what they do not know while we worship what we do know, then you are out of line IMO. Between adventist and methodist to take one example, these words of Paul seem a much better fit: For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you. Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ." Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I imagen that all christians have the same goal including us, living worthy of our Father and fullfilling our Lord's orders. If this goal is not viable for some christians, I cant see why it would be viable for any, and the opposite is also true of course.Not all adventists would happily let baptists or presbytarians remain in their respective denominations if they could bring them to the adventist church. Christian canibalism. I guess that depends on if we are still talking in plural or if we have moved on to talking on an individual level. True.

Let me start out by saying I respect each and every one of you, as fellow people. I respect and honor your right to free choice, and would never want anything other than that for all life. I'm here on a personal journey, this is a time of healing for me. I openly admit this is all about me, and what it's doing for me. Like with volunteering, you are helping others, but it's the selfish reason that really drives you, you wouldn't do it if it was not that way.

I want to take another look at my personal view of the SDA social structure and business model, from my own personal and unique viewpoints (yes, we all have those, it's great isn't it?) I'm not an anthropologist, but I play one on TV, just kidding. But I do want to point out a few things, just on an observational level. Take it for what it is, an unasked for outside view of what the SDA church is, and how I PERSONALLY find, for me, that it is unhealty. Now, should you read this, and think it's all malarky for your own unique viewpoints, just write it off altogether.

Christianity, as a belief system and a business model, offer the following(not excusively, nor exactly the same in all viewpoints, just mine):

-Eternal life, that's an offer that no one else can top. It's the only thing unattainable by humanity, it's the best carrot you can find.

-Eternal damnation, that's an offer that no one else can top. It's the best stick you can find.

-It's the best belief system around (With adventism this is especially true, that's exactly why Asyago like's it, he said so. It's the "most" "best" there is, but only because the system say's it's the best. It's not measureable, it's just a subjective opinion, like many thiings in life).

-There is nothing to produce, no resources needed (other than people), and there's is no outgoing payments.

-There is the "claim" of payment, eternal life, but you only get that AFTER you die! (once again, as a business model, that is BRILLIANT! Unbeatable, you never have to payout, just take in).

-Don't kill yourself getting to the prize. With this latest and greatest version of christianity (SDA), you will actually get the prize before death, in 1844! Opps, didn't happen, but it will, any day now, I swear! And even if you don't get to heaven before you die, you know you are totally gonna make it there after you die, you know cause the church you pay tithe to said so, the promise is in it's doctrines.

The previous are some of my own personal views on the subject. That does not make it right for anybody else. My way is not the only way, or even the best way. I would never want someone to follow my footsteps exactly, that would never be right for that person. We are too unique (in finger prints, dna, or the life that we each lead) for all things to be the same for everyone.

I'll now try to answer a few of the many questions ask by MM. I once again want to make clear that my answers are my own view points, your results may vary. And that's great, the way I think it should be, to me that is what's natural. It's how the system works, nothing exactly the same, and nothing lasts forever (at least not in our human ability to conceptualize things beyond our capabilities).

Freedom and Fear: Am I free? Sure, to the extent that I make most of my own choices. For any type of society to exist, there must be some rules in place, and most people must follow them. There is no utopia, no perfect place, no hippie village where everyone can have every single freedom offered to them. Because then you could kill people, and that ends the other person's free will and that ends the game. So I'm not advocating any "perfect" society. But on a personal scale, I do believe that you should make your choice's by your own free choice, not under pressure from anyone else. You certainly may choose to have counsel, and I personally advocate having input from others when making choices, but not when that limits your choices. And I feel that is what happens when the christian belief system is your counsel, your results may vary.

I fear many things. So does everyone here. Fear is one of the things that keeps us safe and alive. I do not fear death, it's natural. It's never NOT happened. There is not a single person on earth that has ever escaped it, not even your own jesus. I do not think it's healthy for me to fear the lack of living forever. I just don't see anything about life that would point in that direction (eternal life), your results may vary. So I don't rush forward to death, and I don't think there's life that can go one forever. You must have death to have life, rinse and repeat, that's my personal view.

What I have personally found works better for my own life (taking into account, physical, mental, and spiritual health) is to not lean onto a belief system based on someone else's life, but that of my own life. I find for me, standing on my own two feet is best. Not asking for etherial help, but doing the work myself. I think most people feel better about themselves when they do the work, and not ask someone else to do it for them. I don't think Mountain Man would climb mountains if that was not the case. You know how empowering it is to make it to the TOP, ALL BY YOURSELF! You wouldn't risk life and limb, and the chance of never seeing your beloved family again, if that were not true. You are drawn to it because it's a place you can prove to yourself, that you did it by yourself. Did jesus carry your pack to the top? Did jesus self arrest your fall? No, you did, it was all you. And that belief in yourself is what makes you such a powerful person. Even climbers who use porter's and oxygen tanks wish they could do it all on their own. Most strive all their lives to use a "better" style; solo, unaided, up the most difficult route, during the worst season, for the maximum reward.

To me, that's how I see it. When I was in the church, I wasn't doing the work. I did something wrong, I asked god to forgive me. I didn't ask myself to stop beating myself up over the mistake, I asked someone else to do it. And that didn't fix anything for me. I'm now fixing my life by coming back to the place I had a problem, and taking care of it myself. I have been very hurt by the adventist movemet, obviously, otherwise I wouldn't be here. But that's just it, I'm here, trying to be better. I didn't just kneel down by my bed and hope someone else would make me feel better. I went the tough road instead. I made the hard choice to help myself, for myself. And odds are this whole thing is only helping me, but that's the way of it. You have to look out for yourself (yes, look out for number 1, but also help others when you can, like others have done for you in the past, it's natural).

I don't think there is some magical island where you can achieve total happiness. It's not a material thing. It's the mental health part of it. I don't think it's someplace (not utopia, not an island, not heavenn or hell), and it's not the "stuff" (not the day of the week, not public school, it's not about jewelry or food choices), it's about making the right healthy choices for me, on a daily basis. Like do I choose to be happy today? Do I choose to try to work on me today? Will I try to be a better person, both to myself, and those around me? Will I help others in need?

I guess I'm really just learning and putting to practice another life lesson for myself. I'm here, to help myself get over the feelings I have about my own time spent within the walls of the adventist regimen. I'm sorry if I've hurt anybody along the way, I meant no harm. I'm working on me, trying to be a better me, and maybe helping along the way. I have no right to tell you that your belief system is wrong for you. We are all unique and individual, and we have the ability and right to choose what's best for our own lives. I think that as a child growing up in the adventist schools, church's, and family's, I failed to see that. I was an excitable child, with a vivid imagination, asking countless questions that no one had answer's to. I am now finding answer's to those questions (some will never be answered, and that's ok), and I am now helping myself to see those people meant no harm.

I wan not abused by the church. I was not beaten, I was not molested, I was not "forced" to take on their beliefs. But when you are a child, you rely soley on those around you, those older and wiser than you, to help shape and mold your reality. And I think my own reality was far different than those around me. And I feel that with such an "authoritarian" type of view on life, and most things coming down to a child as "you can't do this, or you can't do that", it broke my spirit. And I'm just now getting over that, almost 20 years later. I did not feel that when I was part of the church, that I could make my own decisions, because every single choice I made was completely wrong by the standards of the church, and thus I was damned for ever. The system did not take into account my own unique individualness. I feel I was steam rolled by the big machine, to conform and pay my tithe, and beg for forgiveness, like the rest of the sinners.

Well, I have come to the current conclusion that this is not a healthy life style choice for me. I find it's most healthy to stand on my own two feet, to take the wheel myself, and lead my life where I so choose. I do truely understand that's not the right choice for everyone. For some, it may be best to have someone else be the pilot, and let them lead. But that's not what is right for me, in my humble opinion. And that's what I base my life and choices on.

I don't think there will ever be any total peace. There's nothing in nature or the worlds around us that would lead me to think that could be the case. Nothing is "peaceful", not animals or plants(they kill each other, and cause harm by taking over another species space for resources), nor the planets around us. There is explosive violence all around us, from atoms bumping into each other, making new and wonderful things, to volcano's, astroids, and solar flares.

To me, life must not be static, total peace to me means the end of life. Heaven is not possible to my reality, because it's incongruent with life, it's static, forever, like nothing else we can conceive. That does not make it impossible, I think that anything, anything at all is possible, but for MY reality, it's not probable. And those are choices we all have to make on our own. This really has been all about me, I see it more and more.

Yes, I've been here (on this site for some time) as many different people. I'm not the eugene person Daryl speaks of, but just a regular joe, who's working on himself, to be a happier, healthier person. I say again, if I've harmed even a single person here, I'm sorry. I do sincerely wish each and every one of you the best that life has to offer. I do not have the answers to life, not for myself, and most certainly not for others. I am on a personal journey, life, and it's a great time. Every day is an opportunity to see and do the most wonderful things, to interact with others, and hopefully make a positive difference in someone else's life. That is also what I'm here for. I say it's just like being a volunteer, you outwardly do it for others, but it's really about your own needs. And that's ok, that's life, enjoy!!!!!

So with that I'll sign off. The people on this site, and within the adventist and christian community, as well as all life, are wonderful and amazing creatures. I don't think that anybody has all the answers to life and all it's complexeties, and we never will. I hope that each and every one of you find true happiness in your life, whereever, or however you may choose to find that. Thanks for the lending of you ear (as it were), and the time you have spent helping me. I do feel better, and that's always what I'm looking for, ways to feel even better, and make life even more cool.

Take care, good luck, and thanks.

I got to say Ted, the christianity you described above deserves to be deserted. I agree with what you say about making choises by ones own free will. I don't know what kind of input you are refering to that would limit your choises. Do you see input from a christian belief system as comparable to input recieved from a trafic police telling you to either slow down or loose your license? I assume that when you ask friends that you trust for advice that you consider the advice seriously and maybe more often than not follow it. Forgeting about christianity for a while and assuming that God exists, would your view of God be more like the trafic officer or the trusted friend? Maybe the answer here is the root issue. But you did say you did not believe God existed at all, right? You'r right about that. Travelling, if not uncharted, so at least after own plans and means is better than being bussed around by a sheepherd. This can apply to every field that humans strive to excel in. I hear there are problems that face humans where it is almost impossible for any person to help themselves, even though their will and whatever effort that can be mustered are necessary for success. 12 step groups for different kinds of addictions don't exist for their own sake. Alone is not always strong.May your journey bring you to places and to people and through experiences where and through whom you will find what you seek.

Perhaps. Each person is unique, and needs a unique approach. Sometimes, the final answer is not always the needed answer. But in the end, the goal must be the same: Christ in you, the hope of glory.


It's probably more likely that I am more exclusive than many would be comfortable with. The "in" group is the one composed of those whose head is God. That's the criterion, regardless of what these people may be called.


Again, I do not really put much stock in labels such as Muslim, Buddhist, Baptist, or Methodist. The determining factor is the head.


Not everyone who calls himself a Christian has the goal you mention. I know of a group who goes to church on the 1st day of the week because God said to keep the 7th day holy.


If all Adventists and Baptists and Presbyterians believed and practiced as God would have them, would the difference in name be significant? I don't think so.

Therefore, everyone can keep the name they want, as long as God is our head.


I don't need to move to the individual level, because that's where I've been all along. Though Christian groups can get pretty big, Christianity happens one person at a time.

And when each person gets his act together, the group will take care of itself.

Sorry, Ted, I'm not buying any of it. From reading your last couple of post, I find you to be very manipulative to say the least.''

I also find conflicting statements, here are a few.

verses



Perhaps you are me, myself, and I, alias "The Cult Busters"? Who you "guna' call"?

I have to agree with you that you don't like to follow the rules.