TV: Christian cannibalism.

MM: Thomas, doesn't the truth matter? Should we be content to let our fellow brothers and sisters wander in darkness worshiping Jesus ignorantly? Does it matter if they are unwittingly breaking the law of God, unwittingly missing out on the blessings of keeping the Sabbath with Jesus?

Jesus said, When this Gospel, not another gospel, is preached to everyone everywhere then the end will come. Until then we are forced to remain in this sin sick world full of war and violence and disease and death. The truth as it is in Jesus is the ticket out of here, the ticket to heaven.

Can we say the Methodists and the Baptists and the Pentecostals have the truth while they are ignorantly breaking the law of God, while they are ignorantly communicating with the spirits of darkness thinking they are fellowshipping with their deceased loved ones?

Who is going to tell them truth if you and I don't? Again, until then we are force to live in hell, this old world full of sin and death. Should we be content with that?

Ted, your tale is a tragic one, terribly tragic. Your story makes me sad, incredibly sad. I feel so bad for you. You seem so lonely, so lost. Your insatiable desire to stand alone, to make your own choices, to determine your own destiny, to look out for number one - sounds so lonely.

I appreciate your attempt to help me, to set me free the bondage of being in fellowship with Jesus and from the rules and standards of the Christian faith and religion. I thank you for offering me a different path, a different journey, a different way to do this thing we call life and living. But at this point I must decline your offer. Let me explain why.

My story is pretty much the exact opposite of yours. I was born to parents who believed much the same way you have expressed here. They wanted to be free. They didn't want anybody telling them what they could and could not do. Number one came first. They were Woodstock nonconformists. The rules and standards of society didn't apply to them. They rebelled against their parents and against anyone and anything they didn't agree with.

They brought three of us into the world. Which, unfortunately for them, turned their world up side down. It totally ruined what they were trying to achieve for themselves. The common realities and responsibilities of life interfered with their personal goals and desires. They couldn't be who they wanted to be. They couldn't do what they wanted to do. Life became a burden. So, they rebelled.

This time they rebelled against us. One day dad disappeared. Just like that he was gone. He left us and he left mom, his wife. He felt compelled to do his own thing, to look out for number one. He was absent for ten years. No one knew where he was or what he was doing. He was on the governments missing people list. Turns out he ran away to Mexico to sing and paint. He lived on the beach, lived off the land, without a care in the world.

Mom, in the meantime, was struggling with her own desires to be free, to pursue her own desires and destiny. To her credit, she tried to raise us, to provide for our needs. She went on welfare. But the call of the wild, the calling to be free was weighing on her heart. One day we came in from playing outside and found her in a pool blood, her wrists slit wide open. Be free or die, that was her motto.

The police and social services intervened. But mom insisted she could take care of us. Within a few weeks, though, she gave up and asked her parents to take us. They refused. But somehow she managed to put us on a plane. While we were en route she called her parents and told them when we would be at the airport and hung up the phone. We never saw mom again as children. She was free at last. She was taking care of number one.

We were four, five, and six years old when our parents abandoned us. Three little boys, and nobody wanted us. Our grand parents reluctantly picked us up at the airport. In time though they too abandoned us. One relative after another took us in for awhile. We were bounced around like so much dirty laundry. Finally, we were shipped off to far away Boystown, Nebraska. They immediately separated us, and we never saw each other again as children.

I felt like a number, and that number was definitely not number one. The employees came and went like factory workers. Nobody cared about me. I was a job, a paycheck, and that was it. I began to misbehave, to act out my frustrations, and Boystown promptly kicked me out. But that's when things finally turned around for me, things began to improve. An obscure relative, my dad's sister and her husband and family, took me in.

At first they seemed weird. They were nice, and enjoyed spending time with me. They valued my thoughts and feelings and opinions. And they had an invisible friend named Jesus. They talked about Him and to Him all the time. It seemed to make them happy. Right away I associated their good treatment of me with their love and devotion for Jesus. There were others like them. They met regularly twice a week to sing and talk about their friend Jesus. I liked it. Being friends with Jesus made them like me, even love me.

I reveled in their love for me and their love for Jesus. Yes, they had rules, and they expected me to follow them. They even punished me one time for not obeying the rules. It was the first time anyone cared enough about me to insist I do what they felt was best for me and my happiness. And I loved it. My first and only spanking made me love them and the rules. It meant they cared about me, that they loved me.

They sent me to church school and academy. And I loved it. The teachers showed an interest in me. They encouraged me to do well in school, and penalized me when I slacked off. They were quick to praise me when I excelled and quick to remind me succeeding in life meant following the rules and doing my best. All these things motivated me to obey, to follow the rules, to do my best. I felt loved and appreciated, not simply because I was complying with their expectations, but because they truly loved me and wanted what was best for me.

By the time I was 22 years old I accepted Jesus as my personal Savior. I have been friends with Him ever since. I have never been happier. Knowing He loves me dearly makes all the difference in the world. Knowing He will return someday to end all human suffering and restore paradise is comforting. Spending time with Him and my family and friends on the Sabbath is awesome. Sharing part of my income to help pastors and missionaries demonstrate the love of Jesus is a privilege.

Will I die in the lake of fire at the end if I refuse to comply with the conditions of salvation? The thought never even enters my mind. I love Jesus. Obeying His rules is freedom at its best. It is the truth as it is in Jesus that set me free in the first place, and is what continues to keep me free now. No one is forcing me to live my life contrary to how I would rather live it. I am doing exactly what I want to do. I am living my life precisely the way I want to live it. I wouldn't exchange it for anything else in the world. It is utopia. It is peace that defies worldly reason.

Am I deceived? Am I afraid to disobey Jesus? Am I in bondage to His rules? Am I willing to go along with them because I am selfishly motivated to inherit eternal life in heaven? Well now, that's not for anybody else to decide, is it? Who can judge me? Who can sit there and say my reasons for being friends with Jesus, for following his rules are selfish and self-serving?

I'm not saying that's what you're doing, Ted. Please hear me. I'm simply saying it is my choice if I want to be friends with Jesus, if I want to follow His rules. It doesn't mean I'm weak-willed and incapable of original thoughts and feelings, that I'm a follower and not a leader. Not at all. Everyone alive must decide how they are going to do life. Nevertheless, there is nothing new under the sun. Neither you nor I can invent original rules and standards to live by. No matter what we do we are duplicating what someone else has already done.

A smart person will examine the fruits of this and that lifestyle and decide which one they like best. I know what my parents chose, and I am not endeared by their lifestyle choices. I know what my aunt and uncle chose, and I have made a choice to follow their example. I have also studied the life of Jesus, and I am totally convinced He made the right choices. The results of the lifestyle He chose speak favorably of Christianity. And, I like the results in my own life. Imitating the example of Jesus, being His friend, meets my every want and need. I am the happiest I have ever been. I am free. And I love it.

That's my story, Ted.

Thank you for sharing you story Mountain Man.

Ah, so it all really comes down to sabbath or no sabbath? One could be excused for believing that adventists worship the sabbath rather than its Lord... And what, may I ask, is the gospel? Is the gospel
'He's making a list
He's checking it twice
He's gonna find out
Who's naughty or nice'
Or is the gospel the proclamation that the exile of Gods people is all but over, that the King has been crowned, that the bridegroom is coming, that the Jubilee year is before us? If you are refering to spiritism, I agree that would be suspect, but you better show that the average member of either group is dabbling in it for your reference to be relevant. As to ignorantly breaking the law of God, maybe you noticed what I wrote in post 97580 to Arnold? I guess you did considering that it is the post where I mentioned christian canibalism. I wrote that we risk breaking Jesus command to us that we must love one another simply because it is not spelled out in the ten words. And regarding some of us (sda) as better than others of us (baptist, methodist et al) is a first huge step towards disregarding this command. Simply because you cannot love someone you disrespect.They wont care what you have to tell them until they can tell you that you are their brother. To be heard is not a right, it is a privilege. And privileges must be earned. And earning it you do by being their brother. To be their brother you must regard them your equals. In other words, there are no them, only us. Not even Jesus could be our brother before He became a man.

Very nice point.



Dare we go yet further, the "second mile," and even esteem them as "better than ourselves."?

But let us remember that it is not incongruous with respecting someone, and even esteeming him better than ourselves, to tell him when he is wrong. In fact, it is hypocrisy to do otherwise. If you really love your brother, you would help him to have all the light that you are privileged to have.

Now, if you're not quite sure if what you have is light or darkness, it's understandable why you wouldn't want to tell others about it. But if you know you have light, and one you respect and love is walking in darkness, tell him that his zipper is open.

Arnold,

That is not the way of SDA and you know it. SDA will run the second mile to tell others they are wrong but are nowhere to be seen when this someone else throws a party. No wonder the suspicion comes up that SDA is not regarding them equals, much less as better than ourselves.

And then we should not even mention letting the other one move in with us if he is evicted or grows out of his old place. Such a suggestion will really start a riot among SDA and the stiff resistance to it does nothing to suggest brotherhood with the other.

TV: They wont care what you have to tell them until they can tell you that you are their brother. To be heard is not a right, it is a privilege. And privileges must be earned. And earning it you do by being their brother. To be their brother you must regard them your equals. In other words, there are no them, only us. Not even Jesus could be our brother before He became a man.

MM: Once you win their love and affection and trust and respect and confidence - then what? Do you tell them they are unwittingly missing the mark, ignorantly breaking the law of God, wrongly believing our loved ones are alive and well in heaven? Or, do any of these truths matter? Can Jesus return while people are still ignorant of these truths?

TV: That is not the way of SDA and you know it. SDA will run the second mile to tell others they are wrong but are nowhere to be seen when this someone else throws a party. No wonder the suspicion comes up that SDA is not regarding them equals, much less as better than ourselves.

MM: This testimony sounds a lot like Ted Farmer.

Once you are good friends, I am sure you will end up discussing your different beliefs, whereupon you can tell what you believe as it naturally falls in place during your discussion.