Here is the link to the study and discussion material for Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit

Here are some study helps: Study Helps, Lesson 12

There is a belief, especially among conservatives, that Romans 7 describes Paul's experience of being convicted but not converted. It is said that Paul was committing outward acts of sin in Romans 7.

I disagree. Was Paul saying in Romans 7, AFTER he had seen Jesus more clearly and gained a fuller understanding of God's law, that he was then committing outward acts of sin? I don't think so.


Note the inspired commentary on Paul's "blameless" actions when "touching the righteousness which is in the law." He was obedient "as far as outward acts were concerned," "he had abstained from sin." His actions were already good BEFORE he saw the spiritual nature of the law, when he was still a godless Pharisee.

Is it reasonable to believe that by more clearly beholding God's character - His law - Paul was led to sin in action, when he was able to abstain from such without God as a Pharisee? I do not believe that God's character has that effect on sinners.

I think the explanation in Steps to Christ is much more likely. When the self-righteous Pharisee, who had been blameless at keeping his outward acts compliant with the letter of the law, saw the depth to which God's law reached, he realized that he had not kept it as God requires. But when the law pointed out that his outward obedience did not meet God's standard, rather than falling into outward acts of sin, he saw himself as still dead in sin, his outward obedience notwithstanding. Then he was ready to accept Jesus as his only Savior, not his valiant efforts toward obedience.

In short, I do not believe that a person who can abstain from outward acts of sin while apart from God, will become less able to obey when he gets to know God better.

The kind of blameless, righteousness Paul managed to experience prior to his enlightenment and conversion is described as "filthy rags". Romans 7 goes on to describe (verses 14-25) converted Christians successfully recognizing and resisting the unholy clamorings of sinful flesh. In other words, rebirth and conversion do not silence or eliminate the temptations that originate within us. Ellen wrote:


Nevertheless, being tempted from within does not corrupt or contaminate us. Like Jesus, so long as we subdue the unholy clamorings of sinful flesh and subject it to a sanctified will and mind, we are growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the experience described in Romans 7 is not one of committing acts of sin. Is that right?

If so, I agree.

I also agree that Paul's pre-Jesus blamelessness was filthy rags. But then, I also believe that post-Jesus righteousnesses were also filthy rags.


I also agree here. The Spirit and the flesh are constantly at war in the Christian.


I will disagree here. Inner selfishness does corrupt and contaminate, whether or not the body follows.

As for our experience being "like Jesus," it's similar but not the same. "Old habits, hereditary tendencies to wrong, will strive for the mastery." That cannot be true of Jesus.

I'm glad we agree on Rom 7. It's refreshing. Most people disagree with us. As for our disagreement regarding Jesus and sinful flesh I suppose we should reserve that for a different thread. And, we are already discussing our differences concerning post-conversion righteousness and filthy rags. Living by the Spirit is a marvelous and wonderful experience and I thank Jesus for it everyday. The idea that our heavenly Father is repulsed by it is less than endearing.

Yes, we can continue to discuss our differences in the threads where we started.

And yes, we are in the minority regarding Romans 7. Both conservatives and liberals usually disagree with us. But I'm sure Rosangela will agree with us, increasing our club's membership by 50%.

Count me in your club!

Yes, all our obedience are as filthy rags.

Daryl, wrong club.

Perhaps I should say that all our righteousness based on our faulty obedience are as filthy rags.